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Face to Face technical support in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

I am looking for someone to help me learn more about getting the best sound out of my Tonematch mixer.  I feel fortunate for all of the info I have gained on this forum but would really like to speak to someone in person as I am a visual learner.  That being said, does anyone know of a music/audio shop with a staff person that is well experienced and knowledgeable with Bose equipment? Or a dedicated Bose support team that is physically accessible to Bose customers? I am in the Ottawa area but would be willing  to travel if needed. Thanks in advance.

Edit Subject: Previously "Technical support"
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Re: Face to Face technical support in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Hi Simon Patrick,

Long & McQuade are Bose Portable PA dealers across Canada. Have you spoken to anyone there? They have locations in Ottawa.

Edit: Wall Sound is also a Bose dealer in Ottawa

Which ToneMatch mixer do you have?

What are you connecting to it?

ST

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Re: Face to Face technical support in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Hi Simon,

I can read so I know what you have asked for, but can we talk about it here anyway? I don't live anywhere near Ottawa.

I understand the desire to learn by observing. I have picked up many skills that way. However, we are talking about sound, and when I turn the dial to -6 or +2 it might be a totally different sound on my voice or guitar than on yours.

Bose has made the ToneMatch mixers and their Line array series of equipment about as easy to use as is possible and still have flexibility in dialing in personal taste.

You didn't mention if you were looking to improve vocal sound or instrument sound, male or female, electric or acoustic. If we had some specific information maybe we could solve some of the issues here. 

Do you use effects? Which ones and how much do you like?

In general, with the Bose ToneMatch mixers we would select an appropriate preset for the mic or instrument. Set the gain as per Bose instructions. Then with all EQ controls set to flat, and no effects, set the volume level to what is appropriate for the space, then fine tune with EQ and desired effects.

Personally I don't use effects much, just a touch of reverb. I pretty much know my voice and what I like to hear and I generally make some midrange cuts with either zEQ or PARA EQ, or both, if the room demands it.

I have a few scenes saved for various places and different instruments, so at this point I don't usually have much to do beyond choosing a scene and setting level.

Occasionally I do a song that merits a different vocal or guitar EQ. I have the mixer near me and make that adjustment for the song then turn it back to what it was, before I sing the next song.

The ToneMatch mixer and the various different Bose systems are designed to provide a natural sound when set flat. Sometimes what Bose thinks is natural doesn't impress every user. You have to decide what you like to hear and then learn what it takes to get it.

Over the years I have used a method where I simply talk or read into the mic while I make adjustments to my vocal channel. With the  ToneMatch mixers and zEQ, often a minor adjustment makes a big difference, so I move the dials slowly and listen intently for the crisp, clarity that I like.

So, I would suggest you start from a neutral, flat EQ setting and experiment. Just because you have a lot of features doesn't mean you have to use all of them. I don't think I have ever used compression, though I have experimented with it. Same with noise gates. Your needs may be more demanding than mine. Tell us how you  use your equipment, where you feel like you are not getting the best results, and maybe this community can help you figure it out.

O..



Edit: Replaced references to T mixers to ToneMatch mixers to remove ambiguity.  -- Bose Pro Community Admin  

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Re: Face to Face technical support in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Oldghm posted:

Hi Simon,

I can read so I know what you have asked for, but can we talk about it here anyway? I don't live anywhere near Ottawa.

I understand the desire to learn by observing. I have picked up many skills that way. However, we are talking about sound, and when I turn the dial to -6 or +2 it might be a totally different sound on my voice or guitar than on yours.

Bose has made the ToneMatch mixers and their Line array series of equipment about as easy to use as is possible and still have flexibility in dialing in personal taste.

You didn't mention if you were looking to improve vocal sound or instrument sound, male or female, electric or acoustic. If we had some specific information maybe we could solve some of the issues here. 

Do you use effects? Which ones and how much do you like?

In general, with the Bose ToneMatch mixers we would select an appropriate preset for the mic or instrument. Set the gain as per Bose instructions. Then with all EQ controls set to flat, and no effects, set the volume level to what is appropriate for the space, then fine tune with EQ and desired effects.

Personally I don't use effects much, just a touch of reverb. I pretty much know my voice and what I like to hear and I generally make some midrange cuts with either zEQ or PARA EQ, or both, if the room demands it.

I have a few scenes saved for various places and different instruments, so at this point I don't usually have much to do beyond choosing a scene and setting level.

Occasionally I do a song that merits a different vocal or guitar EQ. I have the mixer near me and make that adjustment for the song then turn it back to what it was, before I sing the next song.

The ToneMatch mixer and the various different Bose systems are designed to provide a natural sound when set flat. Sometimes what Bose thinks is natural doesn't impress every user. You have to decide what you like to hear and then learn what it takes to get it.

Over the years I have used a method where I simply talk or read into the mic while I make adjustments to my vocal channel. With the  ToneMatch mixers and zEQ, often a minor adjustment makes a big difference, so I move the dials slowly and listen intently for the crisp, clarity that I like.

So, I would suggest you start from a neutral, flat EQ setting and experiment. Just because you have a lot of features doesn't mean you have to use all of them. I don't think I have ever used compression, though I have experimented with it. Same with noise gates. Your needs may be more demanding than mine. Tell us how you  use your equipment, where you feel like you are not getting the best results, and maybe this community can help you figure it out.

O..



Edit: Replaced references to T mixers to ToneMatch mixers to remove ambiguity.  -- Bose Pro Community Admin  

Thanks O for your suggestions and for sharing your thoughts.  Since reading your response, I have gone back in the Bose forum and articles to learn more on the different types of reverb and it has helped a lot. 

I have had a bit of trouble getting a good monitor sound out of my S1 Pro (on side in front and just off to my left side) when using it in conjunction with my F1 812. I have a T1 mixer. I also tried going line out of my S1 Pro to the F1 but that did not work well for me. 

I generally use a bit of reverb but nothing else.  I find it easy to dial in a good sound with my S1 pro and with my L1 Compact but I am still fiddling with my F1 with my T1.  I am a solo acoustic act and am generally in a 20x 60 long venue but am also in wide open long term care settings.

A work in progress.  Thanks again!

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Re: Face to Face technical support in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

ST posted:

Hi Simon Patrick,

Long & McQuade are Bose Portable PA dealers across Canada. Have you spoken to anyone there? They have locations in Ottawa.

Edit: Wall Sound is also a Bose dealer in Ottawa

Which ToneMatch mixer do you have?

What are you connecting to it?

ST

Thanks ST...I might connect with Wall Sound or Long and McQuade.

I am using a T1 mixer.  I am wanting to use my F1 812 with a monitor and am struggling a bit with getting a good monitor sound out of my S1 pro when placed on the floor in monitor position in front of me and off to the my left side, slightly. More specifically, I find the sound of my F1 is affecting what I hear from my S1 (monitor).  And I am generally up against a wall on stage so am limited regarding how loud I can crank the S1. If I use a S1 pro on a stand to my left side in sound wash position would this be an acceptable option? Or maybe my L1 Compact behind me and then a single F1 as FOH? If so, what distance would I need to keep the speakers within before I would need to worry about a delay between the 2 sound sources being heard in the audience?

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Re: Face to Face technical support in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Hi Simon Patrick,

Simon Patrick posted:
ST posted:

Hi Simon Patrick,

Long & McQuade are Bose Portable PA dealers across Canada. Have you spoken to anyone there? They have locations in Ottawa.

Edit: Wall Sound is also a Bose dealer in Ottawa

Which ToneMatch mixer do you have?

What are you connecting to it?

ST

Thanks ST...I might connect with Wall Sound or Long and McQuade.

Please come back and tell us how that goes if you do.



I am using a T1 mixer.  

I am wanting to use my F1 812 with a monitor and am struggling a bit with getting a good monitor sound out of my S1 pro when placed on the floor in monitor position in front of me and off to the my left side, slightly. More specifically, I find the sound of my F1 is affecting what I hear from my S1 (monitor).  

Can you say more about how the F1 is affecting what you hear from the S1 Pro?

The F1 Model 812 can be much louder than the S1 Pro, and the low frequencies are omnidirectional (you can't aim them away from you). Is that the issue?

And I am generally up against a wall on stage so am limited regarding how loud I can crank the S1. If I use a S1 pro on a stand to my left side in sound wash position would this be an acceptable option?

It sounds like you'll have to be creative and try things out. There's no reason NOT to do this if you can avoid pointing your microphone at the S1 Pro.

Or maybe my L1 Compact behind me and then a single F1 as FOH?

Sure, I've done this and it can work fine.

If so, what distance would I need to keep the speakers within before I would need to worry about a delay between the 2 sound sources being heard in the audience?

With the L1 Compact farther back (behind) the F1 Model 812 the audience may notice the two sound sources if the L1 Compact is more than twenty to thirty feet behind the F1 Model 812. There are a lot of factors that will convolute the accuracy of that statement.  For example; If the F1 Model 812 is significantly louder than the L1 Compact, people in the audience may not notice the L1 Compact at all.

ST

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Re: Face to Face technical support in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Hi Simon,

I've been fooling with amps, pa's, and eq for over 50 years and I am still a work in progress. 

What I say here is thoughts and ideas, more than rules. I hope it helps to keep you experimenting and gaining in your understanding of yourself and your equipment.

I have had reasonably good luck using the line out on the S1 with the Compact, and various lesser speakers of a different brand. In my somewhat limited experience with the S1 line out, I have left the eq on the other speaker flat, or neutral, no boost or cut, and no effects. ....... I did not like the result of the S1 with line out to the Model II.

With the T1, the indication of how much dB one is boosting or cutting is a readout, the position of the knob we turn does not tell us anything. I am unsure of the range of boost or cut of the S1 or the Compact eq controls, but I am pretty sure from full stop left to full stop right it is considerably less on both than what is available on the T1. It would be interesting If ST would get back to us with those values. Are the values the same for the S1 and Compact, or are they different? To my ear the S1 has less, but I like it better for singing, and the worst S1 eq job produces better sound than the best of many lesser speakers. ................. However the S1 line out into those same lesser speakers produces a sound very similar to the S1.

The reason I bring up the dB value of boost or cut is to illustrate how we can't use a visual when making adjustments. The 3 o'clock position on one piece of equipment might not be the same as the 3 o'clock position on the another, even the same brand. We have to always use our ears.

When I use two or more speaker sources to cover a space, the one that I use as a monitor takes precedence over the others. For me, good and satisfying sound is far more important to the creator of that sound than it is to the audience of the sound. Getting one's self out of the sound field of the main speaker helps when possible, but not so much physical separation as to draw attention away from the performance. One thing the L1's have taught me is localization of the performer, by the audience, is a valuable asset.

In my experience with older audiences in Church and assisted living facilities, clarity is more important and received better than more volume. So, in those types of venues I concentrate on clarity. As I have gotten older, and my equipment has gotten better, I find that clarity is top of my list for my own ears as well. In some highly reverberant spaces it can be difficult to maintain clarity throughout the space.

I have not used the  F1-812 at all, though the S1 has peaked my interest in the design and the new lower price makes it more inviting.

O.. 

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Re: Face to Face technical support in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

ST posted:

Hi Simon Patrick,

Simon Patrick posted:
ST posted:

Hi Simon Patrick,

Long & McQuade are Bose Portable PA dealers across Canada. Have you spoken to anyone there? They have locations in Ottawa.

Edit: Wall Sound is also a Bose dealer in Ottawa

Which ToneMatch mixer do you have?

What are you connecting to it?

ST

Thanks ST...I might connect with Wall Sound or Long and McQuade.

Please come back and tell us how that goes if you do.



I am using a T1 mixer.  

I am wanting to use my F1 812 with a monitor and am struggling a bit with getting a good monitor sound out of my S1 pro when placed on the floor in monitor position in front of me and off to the my left side, slightly. More specifically, I find the sound of my F1 is affecting what I hear from my S1 (monitor).  

Can you say more about how the F1 is affecting what you hear from the S1 Pro?

The F1 Model 812 can be much louder than the S1 Pro, and the low frequencies are omnidirectional (you can't aim them away from you). Is that the issue?

And I am generally up against a wall on stage so am limited regarding how loud I can crank the S1. If I use a S1 pro on a stand to my left side in sound wash position would this be an acceptable option?

It sounds like you'll have to be creative and try things out. There's no reason NOT to do this if you can avoid pointing your microphone at the S1 Pro.

Or maybe my L1 Compact behind me and then a single F1 as FOH?

Sure, I've done this and it can work fine.

If so, what distance would I need to keep the speakers within before I would need to worry about a delay between the 2 sound sources being heard in the audience?

With the L1 Compact farther back (behind) the F1 Model 812 the audience may notice the two sound sources if the L1 Compact is more than twenty to thirty feet behind the F1 Model 812. There are a lot of factors that will convolute the accuracy of that statement.  For example; If the F1 Model 812 is significantly louder than the L1 Compact, people in the audience may not notice the L1 Compact at all.

ST

Thanks ST.  I think it is the bass from the F1 that is affecting my ability to hear the S1 clearly.   I had not thought of that but it certainly makes sense. I turned down the bass on the F1 and it made a positive difference.  

I will try a side wash position on a stand with the S1 with F1 as FOH.  I may even position it behind me and off to the left on a stand with the F1 as FOH (instead of using my L1 Compact behind me).  If I am able to avoid feedback, is there any reason I shouldn't do this?

Thanks!

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Re: Face to Face technical support in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Hi Simon Patrick,

Simon Patrick posted:

Thanks ST.  I think it is the bass from the F1 that is affecting my ability to hear the S1 clearly.   I had not thought of that but it certainly makes sense. I turned down the bass on the F1 and it made a positive difference.  

Great.  I'm glad that helped.

I struggle when there's excessive bass on stage and that's why I thought you might be experiencing something similar.

Since turning down the bass on the F1 made a positive difference, try this

  • Use the S1 Pro on the floor in the monitor position (horizontal)
  • Turn down the bass control on the S1 Pro

This could provide more clarity for the frequencies you want to hear for monitoring.  If that makes enough of a difference, then you don't need to make any other changes.

I will try a side wash position on a stand with the S1 with F1 as FOH.  I may even position it behind me and off to the left on a stand with the F1 as FOH (instead of using my L1 Compact behind me).  If I am able to avoid feedback, is there any reason I shouldn't do this?

Thanks!

There's no reason not to do this.  Please come back and tell us if it works for you.

Thanks,

ST

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Re: Face to Face technical support in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Hi Oldghm,

Oldghm posted:

Hi Simon,

I've been fooling with amps, pa's, and eq for over 50 years and I am still a work in progress. 

What I say here is thoughts and ideas, more than rules. I hope it helps to keep you experimenting and gaining in your understanding of yourself and your equipment.

I have had reasonably good luck using the line out on the S1 with the Compact, and various lesser speakers of a different brand. In my somewhat limited experience with the S1 line out, I have left the eq on the other speaker flat, or neutral, no boost or cut, and no effects. ....... I did not like the result of the S1 with line out to the Model II.

The system EQ on the L1 Model II is different from the other units.

  • The B1 and B2 bass modules go down to 40 Hz
    • Compare that to the S1 Pro (62 Hz) and L1 Compact (65 Hz)
  • The crossover on the L1 Model II is 200 Hz
    • Compare that to the S1 Pro (600 Hz) and the L1 Compact (400 Hz)

These differences could contribute to your preferences.



With the T1, the indication of how much dB one is boosting or cutting is a readout, the position of the knob we turn does not tell us anything.

When it comes to the tone controls, we are making subjective artistic choices. These are best done by ear.  The visual markings on the knobs for the S1 Pro and L1 Compact make it easier to find a starting point or return to settings that have worked previously.  There are no markings on the knobs on the ToneMatch mixers because we use those knobs for lots of different settings through the visual menu.

I am unsure of the range of boost or cut of the S1 or the Compact eq controls, but I am pretty sure from full stop left to full stop right it is considerably less on both than what is available on the T1. It would be interesting If ST would get back to us with those values. Are the values the same for the S1 and Compact, or are they different? To my ear the S1 has less, but I like it better for singing, and the worst S1 eq job produces better sound than the best of many lesser speakers.

It is difficult to draw meaningful comparisons through specifications about the tone controls for the S1 Pro, L1 Compact, and the ToneMatch mixers. 

Because the tone controls are for making subjective artistic changes they are engineered to work with the system EQ for each device. We talked about some of the differences above.

................. However the S1 line out into those same lesser speakers produces a sound very similar to the S1.

The reason I bring up the dB value of boost or cut is to illustrate how we can't use a visual when making adjustments. The 3 o'clock position on one piece of equipment might not be the same as the 3 o'clock position on the another, even the same brand. We have to always use our ears.

Exactly.



When I use two or more speaker sources to cover a space, the one that I use as a monitor takes precedence over the others. For me, good and satisfying sound is far more important to the creator of that sound than it is to the audience of the sound.

For those reading along, here's a related discussion. What's more important; what you hear or what the audience hears?

Getting one's self out of the sound field of the main speaker helps when possible, but not so much physical separation as to draw attention away from the performance. One thing the L1's have taught me is localization of the performer, by the audience, is a valuable asset.

In my experience with older audiences in Church and assisted living facilities, clarity is more important and received better than more volume. So, in those types of venues I concentrate on clarity. As I have gotten older, and my equipment has gotten better, I find that clarity is top of my list for my own ears as well. In some highly reverberant spaces it can be difficult to maintain clarity throughout the space.

This is why the L1 Model II (and its full-sized siblings) do so well in highly reverberant spaces. They have a tight vertical dispersion pattern (close to zero degrees), so there is very little sound sent upward to cause unwanted reverberation. This means the audience will hear more direct sound from the Cylindrical Radiator and less sound from the room — the result: clarity.



I have not used the  F1-812 at all, though the S1 has peaked my interest in the design and the new lower price makes it more inviting.

O.. 

If you get a chance to check out an F1 Model 812, I'd love to hear your impressions of it.

I have used mine as drop-in replacements for boxes-on-sticks house systems. The difference has been remarkable.

ST