ST - Pro
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May 11, 2020

Re: Feedback at higher volume

Hi Funkifized,

Funkifized posted:
gerardsound posted:

Some recommended mics not to use are Shure SM 58, Beta 87. 

Why the SM58? Shouldn't the unidirectional mic avoid the most feedback?

Unidirectional is a broad characterization. That can include cardioid, supercardioid, hypercardioid.

Here are some articles.

Polar Patterns explained

Polar Patterns

ST

gerardsound
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Re: Feedback at higher volume

Yes, regarding the Shure SM58, it was never the best for rejecting feedback on even the old time systems from 40 to 50 years ago, and especially now the Bose systems with columns behind the musicians. I know it's an old standard, used since the 60's. Not trying to mock this mic. Just doesn't fly with Bose L1's, especially if you need to crank some volume, in a full band situation. Chet was correct explaining in detail about this mic.

ChetDude
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May 10, 2018

Re: Feedback at higher volume

Thanks for the correction, gerardsound.  🙂

SM58 has a less desirable cardioid pattern along with the frequency response characteristics already mentioned.

The KMS105 and another old favorite of mine the AKG C1000s have supercardioid -- more directional patterns...

Funkifized
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Re: Feedback at higher volume

I'm not having as much of a problem with the 58 as the lead singer is with his AKG C535 EB, mainly because he's more concerned with resonance and having enough volume to back off of the mic("good mic technique" don't you know). I'm more concerned as to whether or not the audience can hear me. 

As far as I can tell, the AKG C535 EB just picks up more ambient sound, more outside sounds, and tends toward feeding back, whereas I'm used to singing right up against the microphone to get the best tone with the 58. I'm playing guitar and singing, so I'm not as focused on backing off the mic for "good mic technique."

Are the KMS105 and AKG C1000 good for close-up singing? What's a good mic for someone like me who's used to the SM58/eat-the-mic type of singing, but can handle feedback better?

BTW, the singer had been running tests and has found that his AKG C535 EB is causing the bulk of the problems.

Takefive
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Apr 26, 2020

Re: Feedback at higher volume

This is getting to be a very interesting thread.  Our band is using 2 shure 58 mics, a EV N/D 767A and a Amicv-2R. 

we are basically a garage band with limited gigs.  We have had feedback issues and we may want to go to different mics if we can find one that is reasonable priced.  

Any suggestions appreciated

Takefive

rogueacoustic
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Re: Feedback at higher volume

Audix OM2’s. 99 bucks.

Takefive
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Re: Feedback at higher volume

Sounds good to me! Thanks

Oldghm
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Re: Feedback at higher volume

Wow, there is a lot going on in this thread. Funkifized, I don't think I ever determined which L1 you are using, but If I understand, you are using a Mackie mixer with at least two mics that have been pre-processed by auxiliary devices. The  chances for unwanted consequences are many.

For those who mention keeping the trim low to avoid feedback let me add these thoughts.

Each mic has a sensitivity value as well as a sound pressure level that can be tolerated without distortion. If you are using a modern vocal mic, It's not necessary that we know what those values are, what is necessary is to know that the input trim and the associated flickering light is designed to optimize your mic, and the sound source in front of that mic, to the input. You should follow Bose guidelines with the faith that you will get the best end result. 

Feedback doesn't care where you get your gain. There is a point where too much volume will leak back into an open mic, or susceptible instrument, and feedback will occur. So low trim and high master volume still produces feedback at the same over all volume level as high trim and low volume. (Everything else being equal, which it never is.) Sometime our perception tells us a different story, but I think it is related to how we internally process and confuse tone and volume.

Tone does care where you get your gain. By optimizing the input trim level to your mic and vocal strength, you set up the following gain stages to work with the best signal to noise ratio and you will most likely require less drastic EQ adjustments to get good sound.

I am not an engineer so you will notice I don't talk in real technical terms, but EQ is not linear. You will EQ differently for a low level signal than you will for an optimized signal level. You want the signal strength to be good and strong when it hits that EQ stage. Take advantage of what your mic has to offer. There can be 20 or more dB of gain in those two inches directly in front of the wind screen, use it.

There are many mics that will work well with L1 systems. As mentioned, those with Super or Hyper cardioid polar patterns work best when monitoring from the side or behind. I have had very good results with an Audix OM5, the now discontinued EV N/D 767a, and my current favorite the EV ND96. Even though I perform solo, all three of those mics will be in my gig bag. My voice and feelings are not always the same.

There is always room for artistic interpretation. How we achieve our sound can be a very personal process. Overcoming problems requires recognizing what and where the problems are. Our goal as artists should be to find that happy place where technical knowledge and artistic values meet in a good performance.

O..

We can all learn something about mic technique by watching and listening to this man

ST - Pro
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May 11, 2020

Re: Feedback at higher volume

Hi Takefive,

I have Audix OM2, OM3, and have used the OM5. 

I also have several EV N/D 767A mics.

All of the above have worked well for me in live music settings with my L1 systems. 

It's crucial to sing on-axis (as though you are singing through the microphone) and use the close-mic technique.  Then it's easy to get excellent gain-before-feedback.

ST

ChetDude
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Re: Feedback at higher volume

I would like to echo those who stressed microphone technique.  That's the MAJOR factor that can fight feedback along with strengthening your voice and working on vocal dynamics.

The previous responses made me think about my technique and yes, with the KMS105 and C1000S, my lips touch or nearly touch the foam spit filter (often mislabeled windscreen he-he) nearly all of the time when I'm singing. 

I have a very strong voice (louder than most) but have learned to lower the volume of my voice overall (very useful for 3-5 hour gigs) and/or "add air" when singing harmony in order to get softer instead of backing away from the mic.  So I can run it at lower gain levels and still get heard.

The "microphone feedback" link ST posted also has a good discussion of microphone technique.