oldmachead
Advocate
  • 63
  • 230
  • 1
Registered since

Mar 29, 2010

Have a T1. Should I get a T4S or T8S?

I've been trying to read up on the T4/T8 mixers as I'm considering buying one or the other. (Also considering buying a second S1 because ... well because they're so easy to use .)

I currently have a T1 (plus an external power supply) which was bought with my L1/M2. It works really well with the S1 as well - except I need power to run the T1, so I can't use it when busking (using the S1 on battery power). As a solo singer/guitarist there are enough inputs on the T1 for my needs. More channels would be a nice-to-have (see #4 below).

However, here are a few thoughts and I'd welcome input from fellow performers/users of these products to help me decide which way to go:

1. Thoughts and setup: At some point in the future the T1 will be unsupported so I'll have to move to a T4/T8 - this may be as good a time as any for me to make the investment and get the use of the new mixer. I do prefer the sound that comes from my S1 via the T1 vs. going directly to the S1. (I use a Shure Beta 58a or an SM-58, Takamine 12-string or a Godin A6 Ultra, rarely a ukulele, and occasionally a harmonica on a HarpLock stand.)

2. What I've learned so far: The T4 can connect (like the T1) to the L1/M2 power base with just the ToneMatch cable which provides power and the connection for audio signals. The T8 requires an external power supply which comes with the mixer (T4 doesn't come with the external power supply). The T8 needs the power supply - not the ToneMatch cable for the L1/M2. The T4 would need a power supply when used without my L1/M2, e.g. with my S1.

3. Question: Will the power supply that I already have (for my T1) work with the T4 or do I need a different power supply for the times when I use the T4 with my S1? If my existing power supply works, I don't need to buy one with the T4. If not, I need to buy the power supply along with the T4.

4. Question: Am I better off going with the T8 which has more inputs than I need at the present time - but who knows what can happen in the future? It would be nice to have the extra channels to set up an extra mic or two (one with my harmonica stand, one without, one for folks to join me without sharing a mic ... ) Plus the extra channels are handy if friends come over with their instruments for a jam session - they can just plug into the same mixer and we're off to the races.

I do have a Behringer Xenyx 1002B for such occasions but I have had a lot of difficulty getting it to work well - hum and feedback are the main issues. I know that's because I'm not doing things right, but I find it a pain to deal with all the gain staging - compared to my T1.

 

In other words I'm kinda leaning towards a T8 vs a T4 just for the extra capacity (plenty of redundancy for the future!). There are considerations for both so I'm hoping that the good folks of this community will chime in with some thoughts to help me along.

Thanks, in advance ...

Troubador

4 REPLIES 4
ST - Pro
Professional Legend
  • 1425
  • 48121
  • 2
Registered since

May 11, 2020

Re: Have a T1. Should I get a T4S or T8S?

Hi Troubador,

The T8S will give you the most significant step up. The T4S and T1 are very similar.

troubador posted:

I've been trying to read up on the T4/T8 mixers as I'm considering buying one or the other. (Also considering buying a second S1 because ... well because they're so easy to use .)

I currently have a T1 (plus an external power supply) which was bought with my L1/M2. It works really well with the S1 as well - except I need power to run the T1, so I can't use it when busking (using the S1 on battery power). As a solo singer/guitarist there are enough inputs on the T1 for my needs. More channels would be a nice-to-have (see #4 below).

Thanks for the background information.



However, here are a few thoughts and I'd welcome input from fellow performers/users of these products to help me decide which way to go:

1. Thoughts and setup: At some point in the future the T1 will be unsupported so I'll have to move to a T4/T8 - this may be as good a time as any for me to make the investment and get the use of the new mixer.

The T1 is still supported, although it is discontinued. I have several in use. I continue to be happy with them.

I do prefer the sound that comes from my S1 via the T1 vs. going directly to the S1. (I use a Shure Beta 58a or an SM-58, Takamine 12-string or a Godin A6 Ultra, rarely a ukulele, and occasionally a harmonica on a HarpLock stand.)

Sure, I prefer the flexibility of using the T1 with the S1 Pro, and I enjoy the simplicity of using the S1 Pro alone.

If you get a second S1 Pro, the T4S or T8S will serve you better than the T1 because with a stereo mixer, it's easier to set up separate mixes for each S1 Pro.


2. What I've learned so far: The T4 can connect (like the T1) to the L1/M2 power base with just the ToneMatch cable which provides power and the connection for audio signals. The T8 requires an external power supply which comes with the mixer (T4 doesn't come with the external power supply). The T8 needs the power supply - not the ToneMatch cable for the L1/M2. The T4 would need a power supply when used without my L1/M2, e.g. with my S1.

Yes.

Backing tracks:  If you run backing tracks from a stereo source to the T1 channel 4/5, - this leaves three full-function channels available.  There isn't a direct equivalent to 4/5 on the T4S (or T8S) if you want stereo backing tracks with a ToneMatch Preset and effects - on the T4S (or T8S) that takes two channels. On the T4S, that leaves only two full-function channels available for microphones and instruments.   On the T8S, you'll still have six full-function channels available.



3. Question: Will the power supply that I already have (for my T1) work with the T4

Yes.

or do I need a different power supply for the times when I use the T4 with my S1? If my existing power supply works, I don't need to buy one with the T4. If not, I need to buy the power supply along with the T4.

However, if you want to use the T1 and the T4S at the same time, you will need to purchase a second ToneMatch Power Supply.  If you get a second S1 Pro and a T4S, when you have other people join you, you will probably run the T1 to one S1 Pro and the T4S to the other S1 Pro.  You'll need two power supplies.



4. Question: Am I better off going with the T8 which has more inputs than I need at the present time - but who knows what can happen in the future? It would be nice to have the extra channels to set up an extra mic or two (one with my harmonica stand, one without, one for folks to join me without sharing a mic ... ) Plus the extra channels are handy if friends come over with their instruments for a jam session - they can just plug into the same mixer and we're off to the races.

If you're planning for growth and accommodating others, then the T8S gives you more flexibility. And beyond that, you can also connect the T1 to the T8S for more channels.



I do have a Behringer Xenyx 1002B for such occasions but I have had a lot of difficulty getting it to work well - hum and feedback are the main issues. I know that's because I'm not doing things right, but I find it a pain to deal with all the gain staging - compared to my T1.

In other words I'm kinda leaning towards a T8 vs a T4 just for the extra capacity (plenty of redundancy for the future!). There are considerations for both so I'm hoping that the good folks of this community will chime in with some thoughts to help me along.

Thanks, in advance ...

Troubador

For you the significant differentiators between the T4S and the T8S are:

  • Cost: However if you get the T4S, I expect you'll also get a second power supply
  • Size: The T8S is bigger
  • Convenience: As you use more inputs, you can use the T8S alone. With the T4S, you'll probably end up using both the T4S and the T1.

From your points, I think you'll be happier with the T8S when you add an S1 Pro, or you need more inputs.

ST

ChetDude
Participant
  • 239
  • 642
  • 0
Registered since

May 10, 2018

Re: Have a T1. Should I get a T4S or T8S?

Spend a little more time with your 1002b mixer. 

I have one and have used it with 2 Bose S1 Pro systems (and one or two Behringer subs).  I've mixed up to 3 vocals and 2 guitars with it into my 2 Bose S1s (and a house system).  When just using the Behringer and 2 S1s -- I often run it ALL on batteries (3 rechargeable 9v in the mixer).  Super cool.

Hum is often a sign of a bad cable or loose ground - NOT the mixer.  Mixers now days are nearly transparent -- even an inexpensive one like the 1002b.

Feedback usually can be remedied by careful gain staging and changing the placement of the speakers.  I usually run the S1s to the side and on the same plane or slightly behind the microphone(s).  There's enough "side wash" for monitoring the sound on stage while covering the crowd.

Gain staging is fairly easy once the initial learning curve is climbed.  Here are a couple of articles that may help make it clearer:

https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/gain-staging/

https://blog.landr.com/gain-staging-guide/

The main concept is signal path. Think along the path the signal takes from the sound source through the mixer to the amps and speakers.

In the case of the 1002B, I accomplish gain staging in the following manner (I start with the S1s set at the detent -- the 12 o'clock position and rarely have to change it) -- start with the EQ flat (straight up) or bass slightly rolled off (left of center) on each channel:

1) Get a healthy signal on each channel (one at a time) using the gain knobs just below the inputs at the top.  Make sure you grab the right one - there are TWO on the last 3 input channels.

2) Pick a channel with the loudest signal, set the channel fader at the 10 (-10) and then bring up the main output fader until the level sounds right in the speakers.

3) Bring up the rest of the channel faders.  If feedback starts, check the positioning of the microphone or instrument feeding back and/or lower its channel fader.  If that doesn't work or the final result isn't "loud enough", move the speakers.  move them further from the band/performer or further forward to increase headroom.

4) I usually find that I set the EQ on most channels with the lows rolled off a little (left of center) and the mid and high boosted slightly.

5) Another thing to try is to pan the vocal channel(s) left, the guitar channel(s) to the right and use two cables (TRS - XLR) from the mixer to directing the vocals into one channel of the S1 using the Vocal setting of the tone match and the guitar into the other using the guitar setting**.

Try it at home first.  Get used to the process.

** I find my acoustic guitars sound best with NO tonematch and my 2019 Gibson SG Standard electric guitar sounds great on the guitar setting.

PS: You might find investing in an excellent AKG C1000s microphone (street price < $170) might help.  I find feedback with SM58s much harder to control than the C1000s' hotter, wider frequency range signal.  I've used the battery phantom power on the 1002b to power TWO condenser mics for 4 hours and still had plenty left in the battery.  The C1000s can also be powered using 2 (rechargeable) AA batteries as well and plug directly into the S1.

Good luck and happy busking...

ChetDude
Participant
  • 239
  • 642
  • 0
Registered since

May 10, 2018

Re: Have a T1. Should I get a T4S or T8S?

PPS: Hum can also be a sign of bad A/C power, instrument cords (with flaky grounds) too close to power cords and/or close proximity to certain types of lights.

Also using balanced cables between the mixer and PA will fight hum -- 3 conductor cable: TRS 1/4" to TRS 1/4" or XLR.

oldmachead
Advocate
  • 63
  • 230
  • 1
Registered since

Mar 29, 2010

Re: Have a T1. Should I get a T4S or T8S?

@ST As always, you've given me clarity on the points I raised and also things to think about. Thank you. I was actually considering selling the T1 after getting a T4/T8 ... now you've made me think about that too!

@Chet What a super explanation. Thank you so much for taking so much time to help out. That is very kind of you. (I should add that I had hum problems on the 1002B both while using it on AC power and on batteries. Even took it to the dealer who replaced it once.) I will eventually sort those out. I've struggled with the gain-staging however. Your explanation is very helpful and I will try all of those out and see how it goes.