stevegarrett
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Re: Is is Better to use a Cardioid or Super-Cardioid Wireless Mic with Bose L1 Model 2 ?

My experience is with one mic per person. Feedback can occur with any mic. And good mic technique, (hole the mic close you your mouth) is assumed. Either way, if you incur feedback, move to another position and learn some more about audio. I also like super cardioid condenser mics for a more sensitive higher frequency response vocal mic. Op has the best idea to try them all!

DJ JD BASS
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Re: Is is Better to use a Cardioid or Super-Cardioid Wireless Mic with Bose L1 Model 2 ?

I personally have seen better results moving from a cardioid to a super cardioid. In my case it was a move from Heil PR35 to Shure Beta 58a. I now encounter way less feedback issues.

I think the best thing to do when getting gear that you are not sure if you will like, is buy it from a place that will give you a trial period and then except the return and allow for an exchange. Sweetwater has been my main go to vendor that allows 30 days to access the gear.

A couple years back I purchased a KSM9 and KSM8 to compare. For me the KSM8 was not a clear winner. That being said I was quite impressed with the KSM9. I sent the KSM8 back and kept the KSM9. The KSM9 is both a cardioid and super cardioid as it allows for the user to change the pattern.

I typically use the Beta 58a for full bands and the KSM9 for acoustic acts. 

In general I do feel that cardioid vs super cardioid it a real tough question since every brand/model reacts differently with different voices and in different environments. 

Sam_Spoons
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Sep 17, 2019

Re: Is is Better to use a Cardioid or Super-Cardioid Wireless Mic with Bose L1 Model 2 ?

The Heil describe the PR-35 as a 'super-cardioid', same as the Beta58A. though the polar pattern graph on the website (which only shows one plot and doesn't give a frequency) is more like a slightly narrowed cardioid. the Beta 58A is a true super-cardioid with it's max nul point at 135º. It will not reject sound from directly behind the mic as well as a cardioid but better at 135º off axis.

Bear in mind that the polar pattern varies with frequency and the PR-35 graph looks like the Beta 58A graph's 6.3kHz plot so it very much depends on the frequency the chose to plot* and I suspect the PR-35 actually is a super-cardioid and the plot on the Heil site is an anomaly.

Like you I like capacitor mics for acoustic acts as they sound more natural than the standard rock vocal mics, and as feedback is usually less of an issue cardioid would be the goto as super/hyper-cardioid mics sound much worse off axis.

*StudioSpares have a plot on their PR-35 product page which is definitely a typical super-cardioid,

Bobarino
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Re: Is is Better to use a Cardioid or Super-Cardioid Wireless Mic with Bose L1 Model 2 ?

Thanks for the additional info.  I tried both the cardioid and super-cardioid in the past couple of days and for my purpose I am going to stick with the cardioid mic. I really like the sound of the e 935 Wireless Sennheiser.  It sounds so rich coming through the L1 Model 2.  I am also now using the T 1 pre-set (Shure beta 87 a) and that improved the overall sound as well.  It was a great education for me.  Big thanks to all.  

Sam_Spoons
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Re: Is is Better to use a Cardioid or Super-Cardioid Wireless Mic with Bose L1 Model 2 ?

Jeff_K
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Re: Is is Better to use a Cardioid or Super-Cardioid Wireless Mic with Bose L1 Model 2 ?

Just to clear up a misconception:

When pointing directly at a speaker, mic pattern has little bearing on if the mic feeds back or not. Cardioid, Supercardioid, Hypercardioid, Omni, Shotgun, all mics have full sensitivity directly into the mic capsule (straight on or "On-Axis"). The difference is how it responds to "OFF-Axis". The mic polar pattern refers to sensitivity of the mic with respect to direction of sound wave receipt, which refers to side pickup and rear lobe pickup (which becomes an issue with anything other than Cardioid, but that generally only has to do with placement of floor monitors). 

Now, FREQUENCY response is another story. You may have a Cardioid and a Supercardioid mic with different frequency responses, as some mics are flat, some mics are "tuned" (bumps or filters to achieve a desired effect) and some are switchable (bass rolloff's, treble boosts). And then you have condenser vs dynamic response, as condensers generally have a higher sensitivity to upper frequencies (up to 20KHz vice a dynamic's typical ~16KHz limit).

These difference can cause a particular Supercardioid mic to be more sensitive to feedback than a particular Dynamic mic, but as a general rule, tighter pattern microphones are less susceptible to feedback from speakers to the rear or side of the performer (especially when the singer's head is blocking pickup from behind them). 

Hope this helps,
Jeff

p.s. Optical gates attached to the rear of stage mics are often used live to auto-shutoff the mic if no one is standing in front of it, to compensate for the fact that the head does block out a lot of sound that would be detrimentally picked up whenever the singer moves their head out of the way. Optogate is the industry standard, but at $250 they can be out of reach. Sabine used to make a "Mic Rider" for much cheaper, but they are out of production. I do see some on ebay and such.

ST - Pro
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Re: Is is Better to use a Cardioid or Super-Cardioid Wireless Mic with Bose L1 Model 2 ?

Speaking of gates check out this article Noise Gate for tips on using the Comp/Gate effect in ToneMatch mixers to shut down microphones that are not in use.

ST

Jeff K posted:
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p.s. Optical gates attached to the rear of stage mics are often used live to auto-shutoff the mic if no one is standing in front of it, to compensate for the fact that the head does block out a lot of sound that would be detrimentally picked up whenever the singer moves their head out of the way. Optogate is the industry standard, but at $250 they can be out of reach. Sabine used to make a "Mic Rider" for much cheaper, but they are out of production. I do see some on ebay and such.

Sam_Spoons
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Re: Is is Better to use a Cardioid or Super-Cardioid Wireless Mic with Bose L1 Model 2 ?

Good point Jeff. With conventional rigs (which I am most familiar with) a supercardioid allows the overall gain to be higher by not feeding back when the side of the pattern is presented to the monitors or main speakers, the consequence is that, with the gain higher, if the singer points the mic at a speaker it is more likely to feed back. The same must apply to a L1 type system (ye canna change the laws o' physics Capt'n) though.

Jeff_K
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Re: Is is Better to use a Cardioid or Super-Cardioid Wireless Mic with Bose L1 Model 2 ?

Sam,
Well, sure, any time you point any mic directly at a speaker there's a high likelihood it's going to feed back. If we're talking about what happens when you point a mic at a speaker, it doesn't matter what sort of pattern you're talking about. That's why in conventional systems you have the speakers in front of you and use monitors for the musicians to hear, and place the monitors appropriately for the type of mic you're using (cardioid behind, super/hypercardioid off to the sides.

In the case of the L1, with the speakers behind you, if a cardioid feeds back from picking up sound from L1's that are off to the side a bit (i.e. the performer's body/head are not blocking the sound as much), a supercardioid will likely solve that problem. And both types of mics would be gained up to the same degree, to get the vocals heard. But, point either one directly at the speaker and if one was going to feed back, odds are the other one was, too. That's why you still have to be careful about mic placement even with the L1 systems. Distance and angle of axis do still matter, even though the L1's are designed in a way to minimize feedback from rear speakers.

Agreed on the physics. I like to tell people in church who want to do stupid things like build side stages in front of the mains for plays and put people with omni clip on lapels in front of them: "Just because we're in church doesn't mean we can violate God's Laws of Physics"

Jeff