Dave_Hazel
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Re: L1 1S level fading in and out.

If we are now sharing life stories then its fair to say that Amar and I started life in a similar fashion. I was born with a spanner in one hand and an multimeter in the other with a natural talent for making and fixing things from a very young age but it stops there.

Both of my parents were white English and seemed to think the way to bring me up was to mentally and physically beat out every ounce of self-confidence I might have otherwise been born with, fully supported by being constantly told, "You are useless and will never amount to anything" or words to that effect. School was no better, somewhat Dickensian with verbal and physical abuse being common place. Therefore places of learning/studying were not places I wanted to be. Hence I am something like 90% self taught.

Nevertheless when I left school at 14 things changed, my natural affinity with electro-mechanical physics came to the forefront and by the time I was 18 I was setting benchmarks in the manufacturing quality of professional audio equipment... the rest is history as they say.

Full respect to Amar Bose who was a first class engineer born with a natural talent for the subject matter, an academic, and a successful entrepreneur. As for me you can take off academic and entrepreneur. And there is the main difference, a successful entrepreneur wants money but doesn't need it, whereas people such as I need money but don't really want it 

It's not my place to question or speculate, or cast aspersions as to why a successful entrepreneur might give away some or large portions of their acquired wealth. But lets not loose sight of the fact that whatever their motives might be there is always the additional possible side effects of tax effectiveness and improvement to the public image of a company and or individual.

Dave_Hazel
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Re: L1 1S level fading in and out.

Oldghm posted:

As someone who has spent 45 years in R&D engineering Dave, I suspect one tour through the R&D center in Framingham MA and you would deeply appreciate the more than 1000 great minds working there and the business model that makes it possible.

O..

When did I say that I didn't appreciate technological development? I have toured, not Bose, but quite a few development houses/centres/companies whatever one might choose to call it. I fully understand that most companies put profit back into development, if they didn't they would eventually fail, its the only way that a company can sustain itself. Our own R&D department cost a lot of bucks to operate and a lot of it fails and ends up in the rubbish bin... but that's just the way of things, we learn by making errors... or as we say, if you're not mucking things up you're not trying hard enough LOL 

Dave_Hazel
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Re: L1 1S level fading in and out.

Scott Hanna posted:

??

I have no problem with anyone extracting money from me for products that provide value.

Bose: cinemate, noise cancelling headphones, sound link, revolve, l1 model 1, model 2, compacts, b1, B2, t1's, s1 pro.  All were very good value

Sennheiser EW g2,g3,g4 mics great value. D1 products not do much. 

Dji mavic pro drone was a great value too

To a point I would agree, nowadays things have never before been so inexpensive! I usually get frowned at for that comment but it is true if you look at the high standards of living that today's ordinary working classes have. 

Oldghm
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Re: L1 1S level fading in and out.

Dave Hazel posted:

When did I say that I didn't appreciate technological development? I have toured, not Bose, but quite a few development houses/centres/companies whatever one might choose to call it. I fully understand that most companies put profit back into development, if they didn't they would eventually fail, its the only way that a company can sustain itself. Our own R&D department cost a lot of bucks to operate and a lot of it fails and ends up in the rubbish bin... but that's just the way of things, we learn by making errors... or as we say, if you're not mucking things up you're not trying hard enough LOL 

I don't think you did say that. Nor do I think that I suggested you said that. My suggestion is that there is a lot more going on at Bose than meets the eye. I'm not an engineer, or very smart, but I find the place and the people I have met there extremely interesting. The Business model supports intelligent, imaginative, people who can work in a way perhaps not possible in other companies.

Just a thought, if you are mucking things up you might not be trying hard enough.

Dave Hazel posted:

 

Full respect to Amar Bose who was a first class engineer born with a natural talent for the subject matter, an academic, and a successful entrepreneur. As for me you can take off academic and entrepreneur. And there is the main difference, a successful entrepreneur wants money but doesn't need it, whereas people such as I need money but don't really want it 

It's not my place to question or speculate, or cast aspersions as to why a successful entrepreneur might give away some or large portions of their acquired wealth. But lets not loose sight of the fact that whatever their motives might be there is always the additional possible side effects of tax effectiveness and improvement to the public image of a company and or individual.

Or maybe Dr. Bose's family has all the money they might ever need and he felt a debt of gratitude to his alma mater and wanted to make sure that others like him always had a place where they could exercise their imaginations and intellect.

O..

Dave_Hazel
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Re: L1 1S level fading in and out.

Oldghm, You have my unconditional apologies if I misunderstood your comments  

Oldghm Quote "Or maybe Dr. Bose's family has all the money they might ever need and he felt a debt of gratitude to his alma mater and wanted to make sure that others like him always had a place where they could exercise their imaginations and intellect."

I like to think that is indeed the case where Amar Bose is concerned, I'm not on a mission to have a pop at Bose in particular but Bose products does have to be the subject matter here.

The Bose company deserve a lot of credit to my way of thinking. Bose engineering and design take care of the engineering skills/knowledge that most people do not have. For people with the practical knowledge/experience they still get the benefit of very practical, compact and cost effective great sounding equipment. Some of us might find some aspects of it restrictive, in which case buy more kit and or different kit with more flexibility. 

Now I do NOT mean any disrespect to anyone but one thing that many  want-to-be performers suffer from is the engineering/practical side of performance. There are a lot of people out there who are very musically talented who can create a great sound. But a lot of them can be perceived as sounding unpleasant to listen to because they are let down by the equipment they are using and or their lack of knowledge as to how to get the best out of it.

The majority of a typical audience would not make the comment "What a great singer, shame about the rubbish sound system". They listen to the overall performance an if it doesn't sound too good then they rubbish the whole thing, including the otherwise talented performer.

Bose pretty much solve that problem with equipment that will sound great straight out of the box! Buy an L1 system, get it out of the box plug in a microphone and maybe a guitar and or media player and your good to go in a matter of minutes and sounding great... what can be wrong with a product that can do that? NOTHING at all  And it doesn't end there, as all performers reading this are fully aware, if you feel you sound good over your PA system then it improves self-confidence and that in turn improves performance... it's a simple win-win scenario.

Take my wife (please take my wife Ha Ha), she is a great singer, could she put together a more traditional PA system and set it up? Never in a million years! I'm not being disrespectful to her, I'm just stating a fact, she wouldn't have a clue where to start. Now give her an L1 Compact and the instruction book and see what happens... a professional sound in a matter of minutes... All credit to Mr, Doctor, Professor Bose and the engineers and designers that Bose employ.

Oldghm
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Re: L1 1S level fading in and out.

Hi Dave,

I understand how in this medium, especially when we try to minimize our words, things can be misinterpreted. So no apology needed, but it is appreciated, and my effort was just to be more clear.

We think of Bose as primarily a "sound" company, but they work in many fields, solving problems and creating products, or technologies that as musicians we don't deal with daily. My understanding is that Dr. Bose encouraged research when the path to a solution was not clear, but the knowledge gained in the journey was worth the cost.

In the last year or so, engineers at Bose solved some problems with inductive cooking and power conservation (my description, not Bose's) that had stumped other companies for a long long time. I don't expect we will see Bose cookware anytime soon, but their research will improve the experience for many without them ever knowing Bose's involvement.

O..

Dave_Hazel
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Re: L1 1S level fading in and out.

Hi Oldghm, let me guess Graham?

I too understand what you mean in respect of this medium fair play to you sir.

I didn't know that the Bose company indulged in work outside of their main business. Until 7 years ago I worked with husband and wife owned business. We were for the most part a development house, he was the electronics designer, she was the software engineer and I was everything else around it, developing and managing our small production facilities, model making, tool making, installation and commissioning of equipment that we had manufactured and so on. It would bore everyone to death if I listed all of the projects we were involved in over a period of about 30 years. We never had one product, we were commissioned to develop and resolve issue with other companies products. As you might imagine I had 30 years of fun, it was work!

Anyway, the couple retired and one of our customers bought us out (except the husband and wife). I'm still more or less doing the same thing only now I have 3 electronics/software engineers and a non-engineer boss who is only interested in their own product. So we don't get any sub-contract R&D anymore. Which is a shame for two reasons, one is that its not as much 'fun' but secondly because their is a small group of highly experienced engineers 'restricted' to the one subject area and now nobody else gets to be able to use what we might be able to offer.

Point is, it is really refreshing to here that Bose, its resources and its human resources are not imprisoned, effectively bright, intelligent, inventive people being kept away from other engineering issues that still need solving.

It's generous of Bose to do this because there is no money in R&D, that might sound daft but it isn't, its a constant drain on the companies purse! That is until it produces the golden egg laying goose.

Oldghm
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Re: L1 1S level fading in and out.

No, OLD Gray Haired Man. I was tagged with this years before I was an old man, but I was gray.   

You might enjoy this.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/...eaded-for-production

Again, my understanding, which may be wrong. There were a lot of reasons not to proceed with this very expensive project, however there were those who knew the R&D it would take to do it would provide well earned fodder for future developments.

O..

ccc1
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Re: L1 1S level fading in and out.

Amar was a rogue thinker, he understood that a piece of paper from a university did not make a great thinker but perhaps a productive one. Bose was born out of the concept that the environment as a whole feeds the way we listen. He bucked the status quo and understood great minds reach beyond the formulas memorized. That I feel is why MIT was the recipient, to keep revitalizing and revolutionizing the concepts behind Bose. Corporations tend to live off of the past fruits of their conception. Research slowly taking a back seat. That is why when I could save enough money I invested in a used pair of 901s someone put in a garage sale, instead of the big JBLs. I liked his willingness to kick the box.

Oldghm
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Re: L1 1S level fading in and out.

Hi ccc,

Not sure how you define rogue, but in the world I live in, I am unaware of anything about Dr. Bose that is properly described by rogue. Personally, I think you mean well, but have used a poor choice of words.

I went looking for the term "rogue thinker", wondering where it came from and what it meant. The only thing I found was by Michael C. Wright. I think he also made a poor choice. To think "outside the box", to encourage others to think for themselves, to allow freedom of thought in those you might have influence over, is good. To describe it as rogue, in my mind at least, has a negative connotation that is undesirable.

I believe by all accounts Dr. Bose was an honorable, respectable, decent, generous, principled business man, teacher and scholar.

O..