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Dec 14, 2003

L1 Positioning vs Compact Positioning

This is mostly directed at ST. Since he reads everything (before we even write it) I feel no need to address it to him:

Sir, it has come to my attention that you advocate a mostly to-the-side positioning of the Compact rather than behind and to-the-side. Is there a specific reason this would apply to the Compact and NOT to an L1?
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Re: L1 Positioning vs Compact Positioning

I always thought that he advocated positioning the Compact behind the singers and to one side or the other. That is what I have been doing when possible, a couple feet behind us and 3-4 feet to our left, for my duo. It worked like a charm the other night, the female singer who is not really informed about what I am using etc, but knows when she likes what she hears, loved what she heard the other night and it was one of the tightest set ups that we have to play up here.
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May 11, 2020

Re: L1 Positioning vs Compact Positioning

Hi Wayne,

Just flying out of here for an early event but here is the gist of it (from the wiki). Note in particular - the part in bold.

The L1® Compact does not play as loud, nor as deep in bass, nor does it project as far into a room as either the L1® Model I or L1® Model II. If you are used to performing with a L1® Model I or L1® Model II you may find that you have to run the L1® Compact louder on stage than the others to project into the room.

The L1® Compact has extremely wide horizontal dispersion (like the L1® Model II. If you are using a vocal microphone you will probably have better gain-before-feedback with the L1® Compact off to the side a bit so the microphone is aimed away from the speaker array on top of the L1® Compact.


--== picture from the manual ==--

When I use the Compact I generally have it a foot or two behind me and two to four feet to my right. Here is a comparison - basically how I usually set up.



Does that help?
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May 11, 2020

Re: L1 Positioning vs Compact Positioning

Hi Wayne,

It took awhile but I found this post from Cliff-at-Bose. This goes back to when the Compact was first introduced in 2009.


I thought you might find this interesting.


quote:
Originally posted by Col. Cliff-at-Bose:
First of all, the L1 Compact is very different in basic nature from the two original ones. It has a head-high vertically-divergent array that is ultra-wide horizontally. the vertical angle is narrow enough so its sound pressure fall-off with distance is not as severe as, say, a guitar amp, but it's somewhat greater than an L1 I or II. We have data galore taken on the L1C array, but to a musician, its not only useless, it's confusing. Thinking about this stuff intellectually leads nowhere.

So, forgetting all this, The L1 Compact sounds the same and, from personal experience playing and singing solo, it feels the same. When I played (this seems to be a typical configuration), the system was off to the side 5' and back of me 4'. It is louder when you get on top of it (unlike the L1) so you need to get a little further from it. But not much. It's very well behaved and it's easy to arrive at an organically-correct distance from it. But; bottom line; it really behaves like the other L1's. I know it has less overall output than the big ones, but I never felt that limit playing demos for a variety of audiences prior to yesterday's launch. I know the system will allow me to entertain at a level I'm happy with in our live music theater. I really don't want more level from it. Our theater holds over 100 and is acoustically treated to be pretty dry. Charlie Farrin did the same on a number of occasions. He's an experienced pro, playing guitar and singing to demonstrate for other audiences. As an audience member listening to Charlie, I was delighted with the sound quality and level. It was exceptionally articulate musically and I understood all his words, on songs I wasn't familiar with. I'm guessing if you're playing guitar or keys and singing (a solo gig), you can play for 100 with great quality. I never thought once about the capacity of the LF. My keys are never exaggerated on the low end and I want them to sound like, for instance, a real piano or a Rhodes Suitcase. I'm guessing an organ player playing a heavy bass line and singing, like a solo gig, might put the thing to the test. I haven't experienced this and don't do it myself.


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Re: L1 Positioning vs Compact Positioning

Yes, I remember reading that now.

It's hard for me to work with realistic sound levels in my home so I think that for my next gig I will make it a point to use the L1 and set it up in manner similar to the one I have been using with the Compact. Then I'll add the DPA mic and see if there are similar or different results. Of course, my next gig is outdoors and that could change things.

It's almost comical...will anyone ever care that I'm using a DPA 4099 mic that cost me an arm and leg vs primarily an LR Baggs pickup? I doubt it. But we know why we do these things (we do...right?).
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May 11, 2020

Re: L1 Positioning vs Compact Positioning

Hi Wayne,

I'm doing an outdoor gig this afternoon at a small backyard barbeque party.

There will be two of us performing for perhaps 30-40 people. I haven't been to this place in years but it's probably about 30' x 40'. We do NOT want to rock the neighbourhood so we are bringing a couple of Compacts.

In preparation for this, I spent a little time goofing around with some microphones and a couple of guitars that do NOT have pickups.

I got incredibly nice sound with a Martin D41 with a microphone inches from, and aimed at the bottom of the guitar near the lower bout.

The sound was very balanced. Not at all like the sound I get 6" in front of a guitar. More like what you get 18" away. Balanced, clear, with very little string zing.

I had someone else listening as I moved things around and the jury ruled that the microphone under the bout was the most natural and pleasing sound.

Now are you ready for this? The microphone was a beat up old dynamic EV microphone.

I'll get you the model in a minute.

Here is the microphone. I was really surprised at how nice this sounded using a Lo-Z to Hi-Z converter running into Compact Channel 2.


Microphone: EV N/D 408.

--== click the picture to see it in context ==--


It is a supercardioid dynamic microphone.

Here are some notes about the microphone in case you are interested.



EV N/D 408


Supercardioid Dynamic,
Instrument Microphone N/D 408A

The Electro-Voice N/D408A is a supercardioid dynamic microphone utilizing a revolutionary neodymium alloy to form the EV-exclusive N/DYM magnet with four times the power potention of conventional microphone magnets. With a computer-optimized design, the N/DYM magnetic strucuture is maximized in the N/D408A to provide 6 dB more output sensitivity over conventional designs while the more uniform magnetic field lowers distortion during peak sound pressure levels.

The large diaphram contains 50 percent more surface area than conventional designs and is reinforced to prevent "breakup." The result is an extended high-frequency response with an open, transparent sound quality.

The exceptional sensitivity of the N/D408A combined with the inherently low noise of a dynamic transducer insures a superior signal-to-noise ratio ready for digital recording and sampling. To further reduce noise, a highly effective hum-bucking coil is used to cancel hum from lighting and other sources.

N/DYM Series II microphones feature DynaDamp, and Advanced vibration-isolation material. DynaDamp is a unique foamed elastomer, specifically formulated for vibration control. DynaDamp forms and advanced-technology vibration-isolation system which dramatically reduces all forms of vibration transmitted noise for the most demanding situations.

The N/DYM Series II pop filter incorporated a special molded retainer which insures optimum placement of the Acoustiform filter material, for maximum rejection of both wind noise and vocal P-pops. The retainer makes the pop filter an integral part of the microphone's removable upper grille assembly, allowing easy cleaning for continuted top performance.

The uniform supercardioid polar pattern of the N/D408A insures superior gain-before-feedback in live applications and better isolation in the studio-at all frequencies-comparied with other directional microphones with widely varying polar characteristics.

The N/D408A represents a radical departure from conventional instrument microphone designs. The unique pivoting yoke configuration allows maximum flexibility in positioning the microphone near a sound source.

The low frequency response of the N/D408A can be extended by positioning the microphone closer to the sound source as documented in the specification section. This proximity effect occurs when the microphone is placed within 12 inches of the sound source and increases as the working distance is reduced. The low frequency response is tailored to provide bass boost without the "boominess" of many directional microphones. Thus, closer working distances can be used with N/D408A to reduce the risk of sound system feedback (ringing) while preserving instrument tonality.

The dynamic element of the N/D408A will provide reliable operation in humidity and temperature extremes-adverse conditions that would render condenser microphones useless. For years of trouble free operation "on the road," the N/D408A utilizes an all metal core construction, from the hardened windscreen to the yoke mounting system.

N/D 408A Specifications

Polar Pattern: Equivalent Output Noise
Supercardioid 14 dB (0 dB=0.0002 dyne/cm)
Frequency reponse: Impedance
Close: 30...22000 Hz; Far: 60..22000 Hz 150 ohms balanced
Open circuit output level Microphone Dimentions:
3.1 mV/Pa at 1000 Hz 4.55 x 2.8 5x 2.75 inches
Power Sensitivity Weight:
-51 dB (0 dB=1mW/10 dynes/cm) 6.7 ounces190g
Dynamic Range
144 dB




Really big bottom on this guy.




At little more about how I had it positioned.

I was experimenting with a
Dynarette Guitar Support Cushion
.

Although I normally play standing up, I picked up one of these a little while back just to experiment with it. Unlike the picture above, I had the Dynarette cushion on my right leg, and the guitar on top of that. I had microphone beside the cushion, on the bench I was sitting on, aimed up at the bottom and up the back of the guitar.

Anyway - all of this babble is to suggest you try your DPA microphone down there and see how you like it. It is far enough away that you shouldn't pick up much of your vocal. And the distance between the DPA and your vocal microphone should be sufficient to avoid phase issues.

Here is an exaggerated view of what I mean.
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Re: L1 Positioning vs Compact Positioning

Hey Wayne!

How did it go at the gig?
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Sep 13, 2018

Re: L1 Positioning vs Compact Positioning

The EV N/D (N/Dym) mic line is actually quite good, as are the old "Variable D" RE models. I bought a handful of the N/D 767's for our church band that were a big improvement over their SM58's (we did stay with an SM58 for one lady who's "problem" area tonally was emphasized by the N/D's presence peak). You can find a lot of the original RE series on eBay, etc, for a song as people just think they're old run of the mill mics. But you would be surprised at how good the R15 sounds on guitars and the RE16 on vocals (I believe Rush used these exclusively on their pre-Moving Pictures tours, but might have been RE18's).

We use a pair of Compacts for our 4-person acoustic band, and we position them behind and outside of the left- and right-most members (we line up L-R). We have a cardioid Sennheiser e835 for my wife on lead, then a cardioid EV RE-15 for daughter's fiance, a hypercarioid Audix OM2 for my daughter (sitting on a Cajon) and an SM58 for me. The only one we have the occasional high pitched ring from is my wife's Sennheiser if it's pointing up more towards the speaker section. It helps if we angle it down more, which makes sense pattern-wise. We had the same issue with my daughter's original SM58 mic as it's on a low mic stand pointing up, so we swapped it out for the tighter patterned Audix and adjusted the mic angle less "upward" a bit and that helped as well.

As mentioned, make sure your gain structure for your mixer is set up properly before it even gets to the Compacts. We use an analog Soundcraft Signature12 MTX mixer into our Compacts and, whether rehearsing or live, we set our channel levels up so the output meters is generally bouncing into the yellow range (+3 to +10) and averaging around the 0dB mark. Then we just set the Compact volumes as needed for practice or venue use (typically 10-12 o'clock). If your mixer output meter is consistently running below -12 dB, you'll be pushing the Compacts more than needed which can push you closer to feedback.

Note: if you're using a digital mixer with meters that top out at 0dBFS, i.e. 0dB "Full Scale", instead of going from negative through 0dB to positive, remember that 0dBu analog is actually equivalent to -18dBFS digital. Typically both analog and digital green/yellow/red colored meter areas will track for ease of use so if you're unsure: Green=Good, Yellow=Okay But Be Careful, Red=Bad

Hope this helps,
Jeff