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Oct 21, 2019

L1 compacts vs F1 812 - for gymnasium

Hi.  Need some help on setting up sound for dancers in a gym.  For the last 9 years, I have used 2 L1 compacts with no subwoofer and no mixer.  Sound comes from an iPad, through the first L1. The 2 speakers are placed 20 feet apart, facing the dancers and facing away from the audience who are in bleachers.  The 2nd L1 compact has a 2nd iPod that plays music in between performances, at a lower level and only from that speaker.  What I've experienced is distortion on the 2nd speaker when I play high volume from the main (first) L1.  I am ready to upgrade my system and was going to purchase 2 F1 812 speakers and 1 F1 subwoofer.  My thought was to move all the speakers off to 1 side of the gym and just manipulate the 812 patterns to reach both the dancers and the audience.  Are there significant advantages to upgrading to this system?  What is the advantage of adding a mixer? Would it eliminate that distortion?  One option I have is just purchasing 1 F1 812 and 1 F1 sub and using 1 or both of my L1 compacts in addition.  Just trying to eliminate distortion but definitely need to add the sub for more base.  With the new set up, (the 3 sound pieces would be close together instead of 20 feet apart) - I'm not sure the best way to arrange them an if they would need to be spread apart with the new sound pattern options.  Please help!  Also, I'm not a sound person - just a dancer/business owner.  Thank you.

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Sep 8, 2019

Re: L1 compacts vs F1 812 - for gymnasium

The move to the F1s is a really big upgrade.  I don't thing you will need anythig more than that.  I am a musician and singer so I don't know the best way to connect canned music.  Maybe a DJ can help?

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Oct 21, 2019

Re: L1 compacts vs F1 812 - for gymnasium

Thank you Rob. I’m thinking of purchasing just one F1 812 and the subwoofer at this point. And possibly adding a mixer to play the 2nd source, in between competition routines...I do find myself running between the 2 speakers during the event, trying to fix the sound a lot.

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May 11, 2020

Re: L1 compacts vs F1 812 - for gymnasium

Hi Apple,

Welcome to the Bose Portable PA Community.

Apple posted:

Hi.  Need some help on setting up sound for dancers in a gym.  

For the last 9 years, I have used 2 L1 compacts with no subwoofer and no mixer.  Sound comes from an iPad, through the first L1. The 2 speakers are placed 20 feet apart, facing the dancers and facing away from the audience who are in bleachers.  The 2nd L1 compact has a 2nd iPod that plays music in between performances, at a lower level and only from that speaker.  

Thanks for the detailed background.

What style of music are you playing through the iPad?

What I've experienced is distortion on the 2nd speaker when I play high volume from the main (first) L1.

The volume settings on the first Compact will raise and lower the output to the second L1® Compact. Set the volumes on the first L1® Compact and then bring up the level on the second L1® Compact to set the relative volumes between the two systems. If you set the volume controls of the first and second Compacts to the same level, the second L1® Compact could be louder. 

Source: L1 Compact Daisy Chain

It IS possible you can experience distortion if the volume control on the second L1 Compact is set the same as the first. To avoid that distortion, turn down the volume control on the second L1 Compact.



 I am ready to upgrade my system and was going to purchase 2 F1 812 speakers and 1 F1 subwoofer.  My thought was to move all the speakers off to 1 side of the gym and just manipulate the 812 patterns to reach both the dancers and the audience.  

For best results, you want to place loudspeakers where you need the sound.  If you put the loudspeakers (closer) together and off to one side, you can limit their effectiveness in covering a large space. If your gymnasium a large reverberant space you want to place the loudspeakers where you need the sound - close to the listeners (dancers and/or audience). This should allow you to run at lower volumes while maintaining clarity and intelligibility and reduce the amount of reverberation.



Are there significant advantages to upgrading to this system?

With the F1 Model 812 systems you will get more volume, wider frequency response (more bass), and tighter pattern control. (Technical comparison at the end of this post.)

You have anticipated the greater volume and better bass response. You will also get better control over where the sound travels. This is important in large reverberant spaces.

The L1 Compact projects sound very well from side to side. The F1 Model 812 is more directional - you will more sound in front of the loudspeakers than off to the sides or behind them.

Good:
Less sound bouncing around the gymnasium in ways you don't want.

Not so good:
If you have the F1 Model 812s facing the dancers (facing away from the audience), the audience will not hear the loudspeakers well, perhaps not even as well as when using the L1 Compacts as you are now.

Questions:
Can you put the F1 Model 812s behind or beside the dancers facing both dancers and the audience?

Will you keep the L1 Compacts? If so, you can have the F1 Model 812s facing the audience and the L1 Compacts facing the dancers.



 What is the advantage of adding a mixer?

You will have more control over the volume for each loudspeaker.

Would it eliminate that distortion?

Yes, although the distortion is the result of daisy chaining the L1 Compacts and pushing the second L1 Compact beyond its limits. The mixer will make it easier to avoid the problem, but it won't make the second L1 Compact louder than the first (without distortion)

One option I have is just purchasing 1 F1 812 and 1 F1 sub and using 1 or both of my L1 compacts in addition.  Just trying to eliminate distortion but definitely need to add the sub for more base.  

Depending on the style of music you are playing - you may not need the F1 Subwoofer.  What style of music are you playing? What style of dance is this?



With the new set up, (the 3 sound pieces would be close together instead of 20 feet apart)

If you don't need the F1 Subwoofer, you can keep the L1 Compacts where they are (20 feet apart facing the dancers). Put the F1 Model 812s on stands behind the L1 Compacts (facing the audience).  The dancers will still hear the bass from the F1 Model 812s.

A mixer isn't essential to get everything to work well, but it will make things simpler.

- I'm not sure the best way to arrange them an if they would need to be spread apart with the new sound pattern options.  Please help!  Also, I'm not a sound person - just a dancer/business owner.  Thank you.

I've described general principles, but it would be helpful to know more about your situation. Please tell us the style of music, the style of dance, and the dimensions of the gymnasium, and the number of people in the audience.

Thanks,

ST




Technical Details

The F1 Model 812 is considerably louder than the L1 Compact.
F1 Model 812: 126 dB SPL 132 peak
L1 Compact:  106 dB SPL 112 peak

The F1 Model 812 is has lower (better) bass response than the L1 Compact.

F1 Model 812: 52 Hz - 15.5 kHz  (+/- 3 dB)
L1 Compact:  65 Hz - 14 kHz     (+/- 3 dB)

Adding an F1 Subwoofer:

F1 Subwoofer: 130 dB SPL (peak 6 dB CF)
F1 Subwoofer: 40 Hz – 250 Hz

Sound Coverage

F1 Model 812:  100° H x 0° V (straight-position) 100° H x 40° V (C-position)
L1 Compact:   180° H x 40° V

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May 11, 2020

Re: L1 compacts vs F1 812 - for gymnasium

Hi Apple,

Do you have pictures of your show to share?

Thanks,

ST

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Re: L1 compacts vs F1 812 - for gymnasium

If you have been getting by with just the compacts, one F1 with sub will probably do it in conjunction with the L1 compacts.  I think ST is spot on with your distortion issues.  Solve that and I imagine you will be good to go.  The world of sound is slippery.  The best you can do is learn the principles and then use your ears.  I think Bose does a good job of jump starting you with the tone match mixers.  

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Oct 21, 2019

Re: L1 compacts vs F1 812 - for gymnasium

First of all, thank you so much for your detailed reply, ST.  Very helpful.  This is a dance competition, so the most important direction of the sound is to the dancers.  It's all styles of dance, so all genres of music.  I should also add that the schools provide their music to me and a lot of times it's recorded too hot or too low and I am constantly adjusting the volume on the main L1 compact (Whitney) I've named the 2 speakers Bobby & Whitney, fyi. Anyway, at the start of each dance, I am adjusting Whitney.  At the end of each routine, sound comes direct from an iPod to Bobby, and at a lower volume, so another adjustment.  In the past, we've received feedback that the dancers don't "feel" enough OOMPH during the POM and HIP HOP categories; this is the main reason for the upgrade and/or the subwoofer.  In theory, I can bring both L1 compacts AND the new 812 and subwoofer into the gym.  The problem I have with the current set up, and adding more to it, is that it obstructs the audience view to the performance, as the speakers are in front and because they can only be so many feet away (think foul line to foul line in the gym, but probably even less) to accommodate the cords.  I had them up front all these years because that is where my music source is, the announcer, my judges table, and me - running to adjust volume.  I could easily move the whole set up to the back, as my mic is wireless, but would have to just work out the logistics of how far I can run a mixer (along the side of gym?) and be able to still communicate with the announcer, as my earphones never do the job for me.  I could also have the whole set up on the side of the gym (stage left).  This is a standard high school gymnasium with 1 level, and bleachers at all 4 corners.  Approximately 1,000 people in the gym at one time.

Attached is the gym set up.  The 2 L1 compacts are connect with one cord but they both come out of the same power outlet (I vaguely remember someone in the past saying that could also lead to distortion?).  The mic base comes from table 11.  The music comes from Table 12, directly plugged in.

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Oct 21, 2019

Re: L1 compacts vs F1 812 - for gymnasium

Also, can you tell me what cords I should purchase to set up the new 812, the sub, the T4 mixer and potentially to add on the L1 compacts? Recommendations on high quality cords to connect are greatly appreciated!

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May 10, 2018

Re: L1 compacts vs F1 812 - for gymnasium

Just a thought. 

I've done sound for theatrical performances using "canned" music (from a computer - with my Bose 802 based sound system) and the first thing I did was use a free audio editing program, Audacity to NORMALIZE all of the audio tracks so they had nearly the same "loudness" when played back.

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Re: L1 compacts vs F1 812 - for gymnasium

Depending upon the length of performances, wireless connection is possible between a mixer and the speakers using xVive U3 wireless ($200 per channel) - battery life is at least 2 hours but others are experiencing much longer use times.