ST - Pro
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May 11, 2020

Phantom Power adapter for the S1 Pro (not battery powered mixer)

I use a Neumann KMS 105 with my ToneMatch mixer (to L1 Model II or L1 Compact).  This microphone requires phantom power so I can't use it with the S1 Pro. Although I get great results with various dynamic microphones I'd still like to use the KMS with the S1 Pro.

I haven't found an inexpensive battery powered phantom power supply but Heinz just wrote about this

The Mackie M48 battery powered phantom power supply

in his post Bose S1 headset (German content).

Has anyone tried the Mackie M48? Do you have another phantom powered option (not a full mixer)?

Thanks,

ST

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Oldghm
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May 25, 2004

Re: Phantom Power adapter for the S1 Pro (not battery powered mixer)

ST your link wouldn't work for me, try this one,

O..

ST - Pro
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May 11, 2020

Re: Phantom Power adapter for the S1 Pro (not battery powered mixer)

Hi Oldghm,

Both links are working for me.

The Mackie M48 battery powered phantom power supply

goes to the first link in the Google search results in your post

https://mackie.com/products/m48

Oldghm
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May 25, 2004

Re: Phantom Power adapter for the S1 Pro (not battery powered mixer)

Hmmm for some reason your link gives me this:

This site can’t be reached

The webpage at https://mackie.com/products/m48 might be temporarily down or it may have moved permanently to a new web address.

ERR_SPDY_INADEQUATE_TRANSPORT_SECURITY
ST - Pro
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Re: Phantom Power adapter for the S1 Pro (not battery powered mixer)

Hi Oldghm,

Don't know what to tell you. The link works here on my PC, iPad, phone, Android tablet.  I did a search online and ERR_SPDY_INADEQUATE_TRANSPORT_SECURITY

seems to a problem that shows up in Google Chrome sometimes but the link works fine in Google Chrome from here.

ST

FrankC1
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Jan 23, 2019

Re: Phantom Power adapter for the S1 Pro (not battery powered mixer)

I brought the battery powered Mackie M48 because I wanted to use my Shure Beta 87A and SM35, with my S1 Pro. It works great for it's intended use.

Then I thought I needed a battery powered mixer so I brought a Behringer 1002B which also has phantom power.

Then I thought I wanted to try vocal harmony and extra inputs, so I brought a Boss VE-8 which is battery powered and also has phantom power.

Now I have more phantom power than I need. Could have saved myself some money if I had brought the VE8 first.

Archtop_Eddy
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Jul 25, 2004

Re: Phantom Power adapter for the S1 Pro (not battery powered mixer)

FrankC posted:

I brought the battery powered Mackie M48 because I wanted to use my Shure Beta 87A and SM35, with my S1 Pro. It works great for it's intended use.

Then I thought I needed a battery powered mixer so I brought a Behringer 1002B which also has phantom power.

Then I thought I wanted to try vocal harmony and extra inputs, so I brought a Boss VE-8 which is battery powered and also has phantom power.

Now I have more phantom power than I need. Could have saved myself some money if I had brought the VE8 first.

Discussions about battery-powered phantom power have popped up a few times here in other threads. I'm sorry Frank didn't catch those before investing in a Mackie M48.  With that said, I think the VE8 is a great purchase for the battery phantom power and the vocal harmonizer.  And it also comes with a basic looper and other guitar effects such as chorus, etc.  The VE8 can drain batteries pretty fast (especially in phantom mic mode), so I recommend getting a rechargeable lithium battery unit.  I have both a Sanyo eneloop (KBC-9V3U) and a Big Joe Stomp Box Co. Power Box LiTHIUM.  Either works great.  (Big Joe is also slated to release a new power box soon which will also let you charge your iPhone or iPad as well as your pedals.  That will be a nice added feature.)

peterindc
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Feb 6, 2019

Re: Phantom Power adapter for the S1 Pro (not battery powered mixer)

FrankC posted:

I brought the battery powered Mackie M48 because I wanted to use my Shure Beta 87A and SM35, with my S1 Pro. It works great for it's intended use.

Then I thought I needed a battery powered mixer so I brought a Behringer 1002B which also has phantom power.

Then I thought I wanted to try vocal harmony and extra inputs, so I brought a Boss VE-8 which is battery powered and also has phantom power.

Now I have more phantom power than I need. Could have saved myself some money if I had brought the VE8 first.

I have the Behringer 1002B too, and I read that it supplies 23V of phantom power (apparently whether or not it's plugged in or running on its 9V batteries). A mic salesman told me that will work but is not optimal for running a condenser mic like my Shure PGA98H clip-on for sax & other wind instruments, which can take a full 48V.

So you still might be happy interposing the Mackie M48 for full 48V phantom power from a battery-operated device. (I also have some older ART and Stewart products that supply 48V from batteries, which I got on eBay.) In that case I guess you could turn off phantom on the mixer and possibly stretch the life of those batteries.

Would be interested to hear whether others agree with the mic salesman about full 48V phantom power making a difference vs just 23V, as I have not yet got around to testing this myself.

ST - Pro
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May 11, 2020

Re: Phantom Power adapter for the S1 Pro (not battery powered mixer)

Hi peterindc,

Your Shure PGA98H specification sheet shows it requires 11-52 VDC phantom power.

Please tell us if you notice a difference in performance at 23 volts compared to 48 volts.

I've run all my phantom powered microphones with various battery power supplies from 18-24 volts. I've not had any difficulties. 

I did some hunting around trying to find out what "not optimal performance" might mean. I couldn't find anything about the difference between lower-than-48-volts and 48 volts - except that it might not work at all. 

It seems there are more issues related to low current. But even then, I've found in several places.

"The specific symptoms vary somewhat, but the most common result will be reduction of the maximum sound-pressure level that the microphone can handle without overload (distortion). Some microphones will also show lower sensitivity (output level for a given sound-pressure level)."

If you are not pushing the envelope for sound pressure level, you might not hear a difference at all.

ST



Caveats (wikipedia)

Some microphones offer a choice of internal battery powering or (external) phantom powering. In some such microphones it is advisable to remove the internal batteries when phantom power is being used since batteries may corrode and leak chemicals. Other microphones are specifically designed to switch over to the internal batteries if an external supply fails, which may be useful.

Phantom powering is not always implemented correctly or adequately, even in professional-quality preamps, mixers, and recorders. In part this is because first-generation (late-1960s through mid-1970s) 48-volt phantom-powered condenser microphones had simple circuitry and required only small amounts of operating current (typically less than 1 mA per microphone), so the phantom supply circuits typically built into recorders, mixers, and preamps of that time were designed on the assumption that this current would be adequate. The original DIN 45596 phantom-power specification called for a maximum of 2 mA. This practice has carried forward to the present; many 48-volt phantom power supply circuits, especially in low-cost and portable equipment, simply cannot supply more than 1 or 2 mA total without breaking down. Some circuits also have significant additional resistance in series with the standard pair of supply resistors for each microphone input; this may not affect low-current microphones much, but it can disable microphones that need more current.

Mid-1970s and later condenser microphones designed for 48-volt phantom powering often require much more current (e.g., 2–4 mA for Neumann transformerless microphones, 4–5 mA for the Schoeps CMC ("Colette") series and Josephson microphones, 5–6 mA for most Shure KSM-series microphones, 8 mA for CAD Equiteks and 10 mA for Earthworks). The IEC standard gives 10 mA as the maximum allowed current per microphone. If its required current is not available, a microphone may still put out a signal, but it cannot deliver its intended level of performance. The specific symptoms vary somewhat, but the most common result will be reduction of the maximum sound-pressure level that the microphone can handle without overload (distortion). Some microphones will also show lower sensitivity (output level for a given sound-pressure level).

peterindc
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Re: Phantom Power adapter for the S1 Pro (not battery powered mixer)

Thanks ST, more great info. Interesting to know that condenser mics vary so much in their demands, and that it's not just the voltage but the amperage that matters.

It sounds like the Behringer 1002B will probably push a Shure PGA98H just fine from the one 9V battery dedicated to its 23V phantom circuit (see pic from the user manual).

However when I'm using the S1 as a monitor for our saxophone quintet, that will be 5-6 clip-on condenser mics (2 for the bari sax), all drawing on that one 9V phantom circuit from the Behringer.

Possibly it's worth giving each player their own phantom supply, such as with the ART Phantom II box which runs on two 9V batteries as well as offering a choice of 48V; an older Stewart box I have; or the aforementioned Mackie M48.

I realize that we are way down the rabbit hole here, but since I've raised it, I'll do a little testing once my S1 arrives, using a Shure KSM32 I have as well as the clip-ons, and report back.