Highlighted
Member
  • 0
  • 4
  • 0
Registered since

Jul 22, 2019

Problem increasing volume on channel 2 of L1 compact

Hi all

This is my first post so I hope you can help.

I’m a violinists playing through my own L1 compact in a band whilst the singer/guitarist plays through his own L1 compact. He manages to be louder than my instrument and I’m wondering why. I usually have channel 2 set at about 1 O’clock and that’s more than adequate. Over the weekend we played a larger venue and I attempted to turn the volume to about 3 O’clock and the peak indicator came on and the sound distorted. So assuming my input level may be too high I reduced that a little and turned the channel 2 volume up a bit more however it still peaked. I couldn’t get my volume more than 1:30ish without the peak light displaying. So is the peak indicator showing input level overload or output overload? Is that the maximum volume I can expect - I’ve never tested at home as I’d frighten the neighbours. How can the guitar sound louder? Is this an eq thing or have I not grasped something fundamental?

The violin is going to preamp eq and skymon reverb before compact so I assume it is at line level.

Many thanks,

Rodbyes

10 REPLIES 10
Highlighted
Member
  • 235
  • 642
  • 0
Registered since

May 10, 2018

Re: Problem increasing volume on channel 2 of L1 compact

Guitars and Vocals DO sound "louder" than violins, don't they?

My first thought is that it's an EQ thing - relative apparent volumes.  The violin is pitched much higher in the lower energy higher frequencies while the guitar (and voice?) booms in the low mids.

For balance the guitar should turn down?

Or mix/run BOTH signals into both L1 Compacts?

Highlighted
Member
  • 0
  • 4
  • 0
Registered since

Jul 22, 2019

Re: Problem increasing volume on channel 2 of L1 compact

Hi Chet,

Thanks for your reply. 

Interesting comment, I’ve always been told that the higher instruments tend to carry more and the lower instruments have to play louder to attain a balanced sound. However I come from an acoustic orchestral background so EQs and the whole amplification world are still fairly new to me. My EQ set up for the most natural sound I can get on the violin means I’ve severely reduced the high, raised the mid a bit, and lowered the bass. Otherwise I get really ear piercing highs which make me cringe.

Funnily I’m constantly saying turn the whole b*****y thing down! But apparently I’m just a snowflake with sensitive ears (whereas in reality he’s just deaf??).

You don’t mention the peak light. How can can it peak just beyond mid way? What am I not understanding?

Any further comments gratefully received.

Regards

Highlighted
Member
  • 43
  • 211
  • 0
Registered since

Mar 29, 2018

Re: Problem increasing volume on channel 2 of L1 compact

If you are going into your amp directly from your reverb front of the amp sorta thing versus line level from a mixer. You have many things to consider headroom is always ans issue with small wattage amps Impedance is another, line level is usually a different impedance from guitar or effects. In your case I do not know what is being used as a pickup for the violin. Active or passive?

I always use a preamp at the end of my effects chain, it is buffered, many modulation effects like a buffer at the end of a chain. Try using a small mixer to use with effects. You can then set up volumes levels using the mixer and line level out to the amp. Once you have your levels where you want them use the master on the mixer to raise the volume, this just keeps your settings were you set them and then allows you to raise the volumes together with the master. Try eqing last Bose is not an analog amp so it tends to be harsh, sharp it has more of a digital sound lacking that warmth. The violin is edgy and that will come out predominately so sweeten by eqing or playing with the impedance if possible. So get it where is sounds best remembering the highs will be edgy so you will have to tame them to the sweetest spot you can. I am not familiar with Skymon? Strymon I own myself. What preamp ea are you using? 

Highlighted
Member
  • 0
  • 4
  • 0
Registered since

Jul 22, 2019

Re: Problem increasing volume on channel 2 of L1 compact

Thank you so much for your reply. Not sure I really follow all you say.

What I’ve arrived at after many years of expensive trial and error, and that gives me a sound I can live with (still not an acoustic violin sound but close) is, a passive Headway piezo in bridge pick up into a Headway EDB-1 preamp paraEQ going into a Strymon Blue Sky reverb (Not Skymon, oops ????). I always thought going into the preamp EQ first allowed for impedance matching - it has a low, high, active impedance switch on the input. Often if I’m playing in a venue with their own sound system/ engineer I then plug straight into their DI box from there. It’s only lately I’ve been using the Strymon and I’m very pleased with the added warmth and depth to the sound. The line out from the Strymon then goes straight to channel 2 on the Bose. We do use a small mixer on occasion and as channels are limited I take it into left channel of 7/8 stereo pair but as there is no gain on this channel I do have to turn volume on that channel high to get a good balance with other instruments/voices, so that may be telling me something. My grasp of impedance matching, buffering etc is not great but all the pedal chains I’ve seen start with a preamp Eq and then go to effects pedals etc. So your suggestion is new to me.

Further question, is the peak light light ‘on’ on output overload or input as I can get light on at low volume with high input volume so always assumed it was input overload but my experience last week suggested latter.

Thanks again.

Rodbyes

Highlighted
Professional Legend
  • 1412
  • 48121
  • 1
Registered since

May 11, 2020

Re: Problem increasing volume on channel 2 of L1 compact

Hi Rodbyes,

Welcome to the Bose Portable PA Community.

Rodbyes posted:

Hi all

This is my first post so I hope you can help.

I’m a violinists playing through my own L1 compact in a band whilst the singer/guitarist plays through his own L1 compact. He manages to be louder than my instrument and I’m wondering why.

If he is using two inputs and you are using one, that could contribute to the difference.



I usually have channel 2 set at about 1 O’clock and that’s more than adequate. Over the weekend we played a larger venue and I attempted to turn the volume to about 3 O’clock and the peak indicator came on and the sound distorted.

At the point you hear distortion, or you see solid red on the channel signal light - you've reached the maximum usable volume. This assumes the outputs of the "preamp eq and skymon reverb" are not clipping.



So assuming my input level may be too high I reduced that a little and turned the channel 2 volume up a bit more however it still peaked. I couldn’t get my volume more than 1:30ish without the peak light displaying.

The point at which you will see the LED turn red is dependent on the signal level of the input. In your case, that's the output level of the "preamp eq and skymon reverb."



So is the peak indicator showing input level overload or output overload? Is that the maximum volume I can expect

It sounds like you're familiar with gain staging.  The volume controls on the L1 Compact are acting as input trim/gain controls.  The main power amps are running at full output.

- I’ve never tested at home as I’d frighten the neighbours. How can the guitar sound louder? Is this an eq thing or have I not grasped something fundamental?

It's an EQ thing, and there's the possibility the guitarist is using both channels. 



The violin is going to preamp eq and skymon reverb before compact so I assume it is at line level.

Many thanks,

Rodbyes

Rodbyes posted:

Hi Chet,

Thanks for your reply. 

Interesting comment, I’ve always been told that the higher instruments tend to carry more and the lower instruments have to play louder to attain a balanced sound. However I come from an acoustic orchestral background so EQs and the whole amplification world are still fairly new to me. My EQ set up for the most natural sound I can get on the violin means I’ve severely reduced the high, raised the mid a bit, and lowered the bass.

I frequently play with an electric violinist. Like electric guitar - what sounds good solo and what works in a mix are different. 

Otherwise I get really ear piercing highs which make me cringe.

You may need to move the L1 Compact to the side or even slightly in front of you to avoid the cringe factor. Then you can reintroduce some of the highs (and perceived volume).



Funnily I’m constantly saying turn the whole b*****y thing down! But apparently I’m just a snowflake with sensitive ears (whereas in reality he’s just deaf??).

At some point, musicians playing in an ensemble have to take responsibility for the overall mix. That is, they have to find the volume at which their contribution supports the music instead of their individual needs.



You don’t mention the peak light. How can can it peak just beyond mid way? What am I not understanding?

The point at which you will see the LED turn red is dependent on the signal level of the input. In your case, that's the output level of the "preamp eq and skymon reverb." Raising the output of the preamp and reverb will lower the position on the L1 Compact Volume knob at which you see the red light.



Any further comments gratefully received.

Regards

Keep the signals discrete - that is guitarist/vocalist runs through one L1 Compact, and you run through yours.  Joining the two L1 Compacts will tend to muddy the distinction between instruments, and it will likely lower your overall gain before feedback.

If you find the sound of your violin is too strident, move your L1 Compact to the side or even in front of you.

On the L1 Compact Channel 2 - use the ToneMatch switch - set to Guitar (up position).  Try this - you may like the result.

If the guitarist/vocalist is always too loud, have him play in front of the L1 Compact. If he's not already doing that - he will hear himself better and may not need to turn up the volume so high.  If he is in front of the L1 Compact now, move it closer to him.

If you hear overwhelming bass from the guitarist/vocalist, make sure his L1 Compact is NOT right next to a wall or in a corner. The lower frequencies can be exagerrated boundaries. 

Get someone to record your show from at least 30 feet out in the audience. Even a video or audio captured on a phone will tell you how the overall mix is working.

ST



PS - as a sanity check, you can try swapping L1 Compacts to see if his is louder than yours.

Highlighted
Member
  • 43
  • 211
  • 0
Registered since

Mar 29, 2018

Re: Problem increasing volume on channel 2 of L1 compact

Don't be afraid to change order in your case the preamp is necessary for your passive pic up. If you try the pre last it will either sound better or worse. Take the order that sounds better. Strymon is a real high quality reverb should sound awesome with your violin. Bose is psycho acoustic meaning it projects not only front but sides also depending on room dynamics that can be difficult for the boardman. Barrow a clean boost and place it in the chain where it might be needed. It may help considerably especially if you need to amplify the vocals. I use a Boss vocal unit to enhance the mic volume of vocals through their mic pre. I run my instrument into another amp for better control if solo. It is a dance so set up might be quick with the Bose but getting the sound right will be more difficult. This is really trial and error and takes knowing your electronics.

In your case do you eq your whole sound including effects or run it before effects and eq your instruments? Play and see if you get a preference there is no right way or wrong way. Try a buffer before your pre then after. Barrow this stuff from a guitariest. Don't purchase unless you love it. Or even run before and one after at the same time. The buffers will affect your high end. Each room with the bose will be a dance because of the nature of the beast. This is a placement issue.

Highlighted
Member
  • 43
  • 211
  • 0
Registered since

Mar 29, 2018

Re: Problem increasing volume on channel 2 of L1 compact

I use a small 4 channel mixer vocal in 1 instrument in two and three if in stereo. I set the bose unit to the max balance mix without audible distortion. feed that into the channels mentioned and raise the volume of the master that has worked well for me. Then to the front of house speakers. One way  to reach to large venues. I am not clear if your instrument is overpowering all else or the guitarist? Or the vocals are being overwhelmed by all else. Usually the vocals are overshadowed that is why vocals are sent to the front of the house.  Having the vocals come through the bose units plus the instruments is a real compromise on all. I just started when I play solo having a different speaker for vocals getting it right is easier.

Highlighted
Member
  • 0
  • 4
  • 0
Registered since

Jul 22, 2019

Re: Problem increasing volume on channel 2 of L1 compact

Thank you ST and ccc for your replies, they’ve been most helpful.

Recently I’d started adding a bit of the highs back in but sort of explained it to myself as my own increasing deafness as a few years ago I couldn’t bear the highs being high (if that makes sense??) but a sound engineer did mention putting them back in to make the instrument ‘cut through’ so your comments back that up. The big problem is trying to hear/guess what the sound is like away from me, because mostly what I hear is my own acoustic sound as it’s literally under my ear. I’m certain our sound has improved since moving to the Bose - the guitar sound is lovely?? - but that was what it was designed for. 

Thanks for clearing up the peak light question, you confirmed what I suspected regarding function and maximum volume. As I said i’ve never tested at home beyond 1 o’clock but sort of comforted myself thinking I’d this extra headroom up to 6. So it came as a shock to realise I was already nearly at maximum. Makes me aware that the L1 compact isn’t actually as loud as I’d thought. But as I also think we’re too b*#£%y loud generally that can be seen as a blessing. 

Thanks again for taking the time to answer my queries - I’ve learnt a bit more.

Best wishes,

RB

Highlighted
Advisor
  • 139
  • 3511
  • 3
Registered since

May 25, 2004

Re: Problem increasing volume on channel 2 of L1 compact

 

RB said,

"So it came as a shock to realize I was already nearly at maximum. Makes me aware that the L1 compact isn’t actually as loud as I’d thought. But as I also think we’re too b*#£%y loud generally that can be seen as a blessing." 

Hi RB,

I'm going to take a stab at describing, in layman's terms, why we might think the  portable line arrays are not as loud as they really are.

When we are in close proximity to a line array we hear more directly from individual speakers. You can stand back from a Compact playing quite loudly and approach the array and place your ear in front of a single speaker and you may actually perceive the sound as softer as you get closer.

It takes distance for the conical wave front from each individual speaker to form into the cylindrical wave front of the array. If you are 4 to 6 feet from the speaker and an audience is member is 12 to 15 feet, each of you are probably hearing very similar volume, not exactly the same, similar.

If you are not already doing this, give it a try. Place the Compact on the opposite side, (ear) as the violin. Try to find a placement and volume that puts you in a balanced sweet spot of sound from your instrument and speaker and still allows you to hear the rest of the band. If you can create a cocoon of quality sound for yourself, what the rest of the band and your audience hears will likely be just as good.

O..