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briangold
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Dec 3, 2007

Re: Problems using L1® Model II

Friday's gig went okay. I reduced the trim on the M2 to a third (of max). However, it was never stretched, the venue was quiet and I didn't have a noisy crowd to compete with so overall volume levels were relatively low.
I observed the clip LED and it never got worse than green. Sound was good.

My problems seem to arise when the noise levels get up (a busy pub in England can have 100 poeple there all shouting conversation at each other). Perhaps I should limit myself to concert-style venues but it's hard to turn down good paying lively gigs isn't it?

I had a gig on Saturday night in just such a pub in Manchester. The local football team had beaten their rivals 4-0 during the afternoon so it was a real lively pub. I did NOT use the M2 as I am not yet convinced the Mackie CFX12 and L1 M2 combination is working or correct for my requirements.

With regards to the suggestion of migrating to a Tone Match instead of the Mackie I could do that but this will incurr a loss so unless I'm 100% certain it will correct my problems I am reluctant to do it. To be this certain I need to still confirm what is wrong and this requires further experimentation.

I'd be interested what settings BlackForestMan has as he's using the same combination of hardware.
WSchaeu
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Mar 3, 2005

Re: Problems using L1® Model II

Hi Brian,

I've used the Mackie CFX12 together with the L1 classic for more than two years now, with no problems. - But proper gain staging (at mixer AND at the L1 powerstand) is crucial.
With my new L1 model II (which I own since the beginning of the year) I have only used the CFX12 one time and without problems. - But I have to do some tests if I should give you proven settings recommendations for the analog input of the L1 mod. II.
Because the CFX12 has no exceptional output but standard output levels it should work with the L1 mod. II.
Maybe it would be better to set the analog input at 12 o'clock and take the CFX12's master fader down. - But I have to test it out.

Eventually there is already some advice in the section Just for DJ's & KJs.

Wolfgang
aitch1
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Dec 18, 2006

Re: Problems using L1® Model II

I just wanted to add my tuppence worth to what I think Brian is saying. I've had my system since Dec 06 and I'm extremely impressed by it's capabilities. I too perform in a HUGE variety of environments with different listeners/dancers. I have come to the conclusion (you can put me right if you want!) that our overseas friends have a different understanding of volume levels. You only have to look at the ipod issues that came to light a couple of years ago where it was found that "europeans" were using a software patch to increase the the output of the ipod.
I have developed a healthy respect for the "limitations" of my Bose system from it not being loud enough. I'm not clever enough to play a guitar or any instrument for that matter, I sing along to playback and have had many differing systems over the years. The Bose promised plenty and delivered lots but it is limited and volume is where it can struggle in our noisy pubs and clubs.
It's probably great for you guys out there playing the large assortment of instruments that I read about on this forum but there are places that are beyond the capabilities of the great bit of kit.
Ken-at-Bose
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Oct 13, 2003

Re: Problems using L1® Model II

Hi Aitch,

Thank you for sharing your perspective. I've been in those noisy pubs and I love them. People are socializing and having a good time with one another.

I agonize over the topic you bring up. On the one hand, I know what you mean and I know that the L1 system has a limit in how loud it can play. This is a sound level that is very very loud but sometimes it can't compete with a really noisy crowd that has other things on its mind than politely listening.

On the other hand, I feel that the true value and potential of live music is greatly diminished when it has to compete with another very loud agenda (people wanting to socialize). I mean, you play louder, and they talk louder. At least with the L1 there's some sort of equilibrium reached where they don't have to talk even louder because the system is maxed out.

Here's another way to put it. When an crowd of people put their minds to talking -- shouting at each other if necessary -- and the band tries to compete, then speech intelligibility theory says that at about 0 dB speech-level-to-music-level ratio, the talkers will start to strain to understand and they'll "turn up" their voices. The band then turns up to compete and be heard, and on and on it goes until either the talkers run out of gas or the amplification system does.

A big crowd can put out A LOT of acoustic watts of speech, as we know.

So the music essentially is being played at the same level of the speech -- with almost no dynamic range.

Darn it. That's what upsets me. Something big is lost.

Ken
roy_2
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Jul 26, 2007

Re: Problems using L1® Model II

Hey Ken - I agree with you but I feel that unless you have amonster PA you are going top compete with a noisy crowd. I had a powered FBT system with subs monitors the whole works. I have said this in other post. If the room is to big or noisy for the Bose then it would be that way for the old system. I keep waiting to hit that room where I go well it just won't cut it here, but I have not that room yet. I have played the biggest rooms in my town and all the outdoor events. One thing I have notice in this forum. When I first looked at the system 2 to 3 years ago it seemed that it was mainly being used by solo acouctic acts. Even though I do a solo it is more on a band level so I wsn't keen on this new approach. The L1 Model 2 has changed that for me. I also see more bands and solo acts like myself making the move over. I would also like to coment on soemthing that I rememberd the other night. Some of you might remember the Gratefuldead had a PA with the same concept as the Bose. Much larger on scale but the same principle. No monitors, very clean, and long projectiion. it was amazing for the time. I have added 3 links for those of you don't know about this. Thanks - Roy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_of_Sound_(Grateful_Dead)

http://www.wallofsound.ws/

http://dozin.com/wallofsound/index.html
WSchaeu
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Mar 3, 2005

Re: Problems using L1® Model II

I always wonder how musicians/bands do estimate how "good" they can compete with a noisy crowd.
What is the indicator? Confused
Is it the ratio of sound levels (noisy crowd vs. music) on stage? Or at the back side of the room? (just curious)

I personnaly treat things in a way Ken does:
If people are setting priority on talking (socializing) I guess it's a sort of background music what they want, and not a "competing" level of music.

Conventional PA may be perceived louder just in front of the speaker for a certain distance, but overall coverage and long throw is not comparable to the L1 system.
Some advantage of a PA system maybe their position on sticks above the heads of the crowd.
Elevating the L1 1-2 feet on a stable basis would the same thing even better.

Wolfgang
jimboblueice
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Feb 4, 2008

Re: Problems using L1® Model II

Hi Brian,

Just thought I'd add my tuppence worth.

Three things:

1. I had both a Mackie Mixer (DFX12) from a previous pa setup and now a Toneport / L1 II setup. Trying them both back-to-back there was just just no competition. Mackie mixer was on eBay the next day (and I really loved that mixer).

2. Toneport / L1 II combination has six (6) inputs that should cover your needs. Inputs 1, 2,3 and a double input (4/5) that you can use for two separate inputs and, of course, the further input on the power stand. Switching scenes (if required) is as straightforward as people suggest. (You could also look at A/B switches for switching between inputs that are mutually exclusive.)

3. I'm up in Fife, Scotland, so if you're in the area, you're welcome to come and try.

Regards,
Jim S.
Ken-at-Bose
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Oct 13, 2003

Re: Problems using L1® Model II

Oh. This stirs up so much in me.

Roy. You're right. You need a monster PA to overpower a crowd that is willing to shout to "talk" to each other. To me, the result is like jackhammering someone in the face to get them to be quiet. Ugh.

Also, we've had lots and lots of discussion about the Dead's Wall of Sound system. So innovative. So courageous. An inspiration to so many of us.

BlackForestMan, the most interesting thing I've ever seen is a band that deliberately played quietly in a noisy crowd, and guess what happened? People quieted down! This doesn't always happen of course. Still, it's more interesting to me to see it go that direction rather than the talker-band volume wars.

Ken
roy_2
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Jul 26, 2007

Re: Problems using L1® Model II

I think unless your in a concert situation where people have paid money to see you, we as musicians must understand that people come to a bar or a party for lots of reasons and and it might not be to hear the band. The first set is always a challenge. Once peole get use to whats goung on they start to respond. I have done the turn down trick. It works sometimes and sometimes it doesnt. I have also gone into self indulgence mode where I just play the songs I like. This works sometimes to. Most of the time I just keep to my routine, smile, small talk and wait for everyone to catch on, and this works the majority of the time. I have been to concerts where people have paid good money for big name acts and the main act has to ask for every to please be quiet, Chastain Park in Atlanta is famous for this. So it goes with the teritory. I think this subject is number 8 on the paying your dues list. If all of you would show up for the monthly "Paying Your Dues" meetings you would know this Wink Roy
briangold
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Dec 3, 2007

Re: Problems using L1® Model II

Guys,

Thanks for the superb comments and contributions. Seems to have deviated a little from my original problem perhaps but it's all great stuff.

Volume Levels
The play-quieter and they will listen technique is always hit and miss. In pubs here in northern England (Liverpool and Manchester) perception is the louder the performer the better he/she must be. Rubbish of course but punters are notoriously fickle and if you're too quiet in a pub which is throbbing with punters they'll go somewhere with more bounce. I sang at The Cavern last year for a Canadian friend's band and I could not hear a thing. The band's amps drowned everything out and monitors were completely ineffective. it's a crucial part of some gigs. Trouble is there's horses for courses isn't there? Big sound means big boxes. Quality sound and reaching out to bigger venues can require a different set of boxes.

Original Problem
My main worry is playing guitar and the warbling I experienced. Balancing gain and trim levels is one thing perhaps and I should consider the Tone Match so will probably try a new setup out involving such instead of the Mackie.

Toneport
I don't understand what is meant by jimboblueice's commenst about a toneport. I assume it's the ToneMatch audio engine's predecessor?

Thanks once again everyone. I am offline for a couple of weeks now as we're on holiday (Cuba). Please keep contributing and I'll pick them up in a couple of weeks.
Ola!