Question for Bose techs

[wezx]

Hi, I have recently become one of your featured artists. My production company operates several band acts as well as several solo/one-man band acts. Our acts do over 200 shows/year. The main use for the PAS will be for the solo acts. I initially used the system at the Cheeseburger In Paradise chain which has outfitted all of their restaurants with 2 towers and 2 subs. I wanted to see how a single tower/sub would function and have used this setup the last 2 shows. These solo shows often start out or end up as dance shows so I was thinking I might need additional systems for this. The single tower/sub system performed very well, but as excpected at higher levels for the dance music I was definately hitting the system harder than it liked. Though not clipping you could definately hear the limiter breathing...not really something the audience would have noticed, but definately not something I want. My previous workhorse PA was 2 EV T-52's and a Crown PB-3 bridged which obviously gave me incredible headroom. I'm wondering if I should try another sub with the single tower or go with 2 towers and 2 subs? My main concern is having enough headroom for the dance crowds. Incidentally the 2 tower/2 sub systems at Cheeseburger In Paradise almost took my head off at low attenuation settings, so I'm thinking that may be the way to go. I would be sending the same mono mix to each system. Will I have any phasing problems running two systems? Can I slave one to the other? What are your thoughts on this? Thanks!

[hilmar-at-bose]

Hi wezx

Our system is pretty scalable, so you do have a couple of options here. I'd first try a second B1 with your existing system and see how far that takes you. On dance music with a single B1 you tend to run out of steam on the B1 much earlier than on the L1.

If you still feel you need more, upgrading eventually to 2 double B1 systems should certainly work. I didn't fully understand what your setup for "dance shows" is. If parts of that are coming from a stereo source, you could run the 2 systems in stereo. If its a solo performer, it would probably be better to run the same signal to both L1s. They can be daisy chained for Channels 1&2 but not for channels 3 and 4. If you tell me more about your setup details, I might be able to give some advice on how to do that.
I wouldn't worry about "phasing issues". Due its very even coverage two systems tend to work well with each other.

Hope that helps

Hilmar

[wfs_2]

one other note if it can help. when i first tried playing pre recorded music through the pas going into ch 1 and 2, i too heard that pumping. i found it extremely impoortant to make sure the leds on the pas were at least always green and never went out. when i did this, all the pumping went away.
maybe its because of the way the pres work (digital? ) but on any signal i feed to ch 1 or 2 if the light goes out, the signalk seems to drop abrubtly. seems on normal analog pres, its more subtle. at high volume levels the limiter is still probably kickin in, but as long as the pres on my pas dont drop the signal ( no green ligh lit) i never hear pumping anymore. noit sure if that might be your issue, but it seemed to solve that problem for me.

[wezx]

Hi, thanks for the prompt reply. I spent several hours last night going over the entire forum reading many different posts concerning running 2 systems like a PA. I concentrated mainly on the "so an so at Bose" posts. What is confusing is that there seems to be differing opinions amongst the people at Bose concerning how well 2 systems can run in dual mono. Hilmar at Bose; "I wouldn't worry about "phasing issues". Due its very even coverage two systems tend to work well with each other." This is stark contrast to the Cliff at Bose who says "Our system has such a gradual change in sound pressure with distance that a pair of systems are clearly and more equally heard way off-axis. This is the quality that gives a pair of L1's such a wide stereo image "sweet spot". It's also a quality that leads to bad dual-mono." He goes on to describe cancellation issues when running dual mono. Steve G at Bose also has a post where he responds to a guy who wants to send a mono signal to 2 systems and he tells him it should work fine. No offense, but who am I supposed to believe here?

[hilmar-at-bose]

Sorry for the confusion.

If you can let me know in a little more detail, what your setup is and what you will be playing through the system. we can maybe give you more specific advise.

Dual mono is usually not a good idea, if you have more than one performer. With more than one performer/source it's in my opinion always perferable to separate the sources (i.e. one source per L1). The spatial separation and precise localization helps more with clarity much more than the added gain.

For a single perfomer/single source it's not quite so clear cut. If I remember correctly I had a long discussion with wfs on the topic of "one vs. two". One will be more accurate (i.e. sound is clearly located at performer's position, more consitent spectrum) and two will sound wider and more spacious. In the end, that is an artistic decision, depending on which one is closer to your artisitic intend.

Cliff is certainly right that there can be some cancellation issues with dual mono, but whether that's an issue or not depends on what exactly the mono signal is. It also depends a little on what you do with the second system. Do you use a "stereo setup" or do you place and point for added coverage (i.e. point the second system to an area that doesn't have good coverage through the first one).

Many DJ's on the forum use two systems very successfully. Although they play back stereo content, a most of the energy in recorded music (voice, bass, kick) is panned dead center so there is a significant mono component in these signals as well.

I hope that makes a little more sense to you.

Hilmar

[wezx]

Thanks for the reply. I would be sending the exact same signal from a mixer to both L1/B1 systems. Track/vocal/guitar/keys/sax...one performer. I'm wondering if I might be well served to set the systems right next to each other similar to the X-micing technique for overheads which cuts down on phasing as opposed to the "either side of the stage" standard PA setup.

[wfs_2]

hilmar you are correct we went over this alot, as it confused me too.
basically the idea i came away from as a single vocalist and guitar player is this.
2 systems would benifit me if i wanted to run my guitar through one and my voice through the other. this would give maybe a little more definition to both the vocal and the guitar.
i decided in my case the expense wasnt worth the subtle difference. albeit if i was playing with another instrument player and possibly another vocalist, i would probably opt for 2 systems for the definition.
we had also discusseed thar for me to run my guitar and vocal through both systems ( dual mono) i would only as far as power goes be increasing my power by 3db at the most.
we had also discussed with prerecorded material ( stereo) 2 systems would be great for that given the large sweet spot.
the final thing that was confusing was the placement of 2 systems when running dual mono. either you or cliff i think after discussions said, if the systems were at last 4 ft apart, phasing shouldnt be a problem.
i was basically going to go dual mono for more power, and run each system at lower volumes, but when i understood the litle gain in db saw it was for my situation superflous.
if i were a dj , i think i def would go stereo 2 l1 double bass.
the other issue i believe was a big thing on the forum was running keyboards in stereo. seems some of the keyboards out on the market didnt sound that good in mono. but some have had good success with others.
we basically agreed ( i think cliff) in most situations mono is better as far as the audience all hearing the same thing. but also agreed i think that if a room was conducive to it, ( meaning running 2 systems stereo with the keyboard)where all could hear a good stereo spread ....stereo would sound nice. but basically it all came down to ones preference. an d too the issue was not so much bose, but the issue of how the keyboard manufacturers made the samples for the keyboards. hope this helps, as it all was a bit confusing to me also at the beginning.
one final thought if one decides to run 2 units in stereo albeit piano, or pre recorded music. the bose will definetly have a bigger sweet spot and allow more ( if not all, depending on the room) in the audience to hear a good stereo spread.

[wfs_2]

there is one other thing id like to mention. there may be a case where one person like me would want 2 systems running in mono.
the only problem i have noticed with the bose is in large reflective rooms. it involves the slapback echoes one hears if when performoing they are not parellel to the bose system ( meaning performer facing the audience with bose behind).
if one in these type rooms turns their head perpendicukar to the bose, the slapback from the room is bad. so bad situation for maybe a roaming guitarist.
was wondering ( even though the slapback would still physicly be there)if one used another bose system in front of them ( maybe off to the side as like a stage wash monitor)if running that as a type of monitor so one wopuld hear the bose and not so much of the room slapback.....is this a feasible idea hilmar, or would it cause other problems. has anyone else on the forum noticed this artifact in large reflective rooms with the bose?

[asat]

quote:

has anyone else on the forum noticed this artifact in large reflective rooms with the bose?

Yes, in a 300-400 guest black box theatre I frequently play-in and very large hotel conference hall a couple weeks ago.

When it bugged me I tilted the L1 back a few degrees with the carry bag. It didn't take much to notice a significant drop in the reflected audio level.

'Figure people are usually standing in the back anyway so I don't think they lose much of the wave.

[fruits]

We have two PAS double bass systems at our church, which is also a Large Reflective Auditorium (LRA). We run everything through our 32 channel Mackie mixer and run dual mono signals as our auditorium is a pie shaped auditorium (has block walls). We have noticed the slap back sound, so we placed the two PAS systems on the far end of each side of the stage and angled them in slightly toward the center. This has signifigantly reduced the slapback effect. We tried tilting the systems up slightly and this had no effect on the slapback reflections we heard.
We haven't had any problems with the dual mono system, but perhaps this is because of the fan or pie shape of our auditorium. We did have alot of adjustments to make and a bit of a learning curve on how to run through a good system versus the bad system we have tinkered with to make sound decent over the years.