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Jan 22, 2014

S1 Pro Busking Power Questions

   My good news is that I have an S1 Pro & Battery on the way today!!   The better news is that it is a gift!  So I will definitely be taking it out, reviewing, and putting it through more than several situations outside, inside, small venue gigs, etc.  

    My question has to do with busking power sources.  I want to be able to use my Infinity Looper, TC Helicon Mic Looper, TC Helicon Chorus pedal, VoiceLive 3 Extreme, and The T1 Tonematch just as I do in my shows with the L1 Model 2 /B2 Module and Tonematch.  

   S1Pro battery power...big power situation solved, but the rest!  I need to power the above mentioned pedals by generated source.  I do not want to use the inverter/marine battery rigged thing, and I definitely do not want a gas generator to run these pedals and the T1.   I have done a lot of research and I've narrowed it to a battery generator from Amazon.  (link below).  My units I need power do not show the wattage used by each, only the amps, volts, etc.  I tried to configure it all to convert to wattage needed, but get sketchy looking results.   I for SURE do not want to damage anything I have!   As of now, in regular wall AC, I have a Furman Power Strip that each of my pedals plug into.  I have this power generator from Amazon on the way, but want to be certain before putting it to the test and could use any advices or knowledge from any and all of you guys!  The info I can get from the units I need are as follows: (taken from the power adapter plugs and backs of the units )

Infinity Looper: 18 volts DC - 1.0 Amps
Helicon Chorus Pedal: 9 volts DC - 100 ma
Pigtronix Inifinity Looper: 18 volts - 300 ma
Helicon Mic Looper: 12 volts - 400 ma
T1 Tonematch: 18 volts  - 1.0 Amps

Anyone know how to get the wattage needed from these figures alone?
And also does anyone know that this generator (link below) will work for powering all these comfortably and safely?  It is a 500 watt Pure Sine Wave Unit.   

Any and all information, tips, knowledge is sure appreciated!    Thanks much,   Tom 
Amazon Power AC Generator Portable

power generator

 

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Re: S1 Pro Busking Power Questions

Hi MusicmanThomas,

Infinity Looper: 18 volts DC - 1.0 Amps
Helicon Chorus Pedal: 9 volts DC - 100 ma
Pigtronix Inifinity Looper: 18 volts - 300 ma
Helicon Mic Looper: 12 volts - 400 ma
T1 Tonematch: 18 volts  - 1.0 Amps

This looks like about 140 Watts (at 120 Volts). Allowing for inefficiencies, I'd budget for 300 Watts.  Looking at this another way, I normally budget 100 Watts for a T1 alone. So your list should be about somewhere between 200-300 Watts.



ST

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Jan 22, 2014

Re: S1 Pro Busking Power Questions

Thanks so much ST!  You've saved me and helped me more than several times over these years.  Don't know what you are paid for what you do where you do it....but it isn't near enough! 

   The portable generator unit I have coming is rated 500 watts and is rated 288 Watt Hours.  If I've done the calculations correctly, this means I should get about 2 hours, perhaps more from a full charge using the devices I mentioned.  Was hoping for 3, but worse case scenario will be to buy a second portable just like it on standby, take a break, replug into the 2nd one and go another 2 hours which is more than plenty 99% of the time. 

   I had them figured on the conversion calculator at only 90 watts total and I knew that just couldn't be right. 

    As soon as I have the S1 Pro up and it's battery charged and the generator charged I will do a practice show and see just how long they both actually last in power.   By being able to also power all my effects, vocal processing, and the T1,  just like my regular show with the L1 Model 2, it will not be a game changer for me....it will be a game expander for me! 

   I will be reporting back as soon as it all arrives and I'm able to give it the road run.  Thanks again so much ST!!   And I welcome anyone elses ideas, tips, tricks or knowledge!   Keep the Fires Burning!   Tom 

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Re: S1 Pro Busking Power Questions

Hi Tom,

Let's ask @Seagullman to check our math. I'm sure he (Tony) will know if we've done it right.

ST

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Dec 13, 2013

Re: S1 Pro Busking Power Questions

Hi Tom, ST,

OK first of all thanks for the trust you're putting in my knowledge here.

So when I was at school and also during apprenticeships etc. one of the main formulas we learned was P = U x I whereby;

P is the electrical power given im Watts (W)

U is the voltage given in Volts (V)

I is the current given in Amps (A)

Let's put this formula to work in connection to Tom's gear using the information you've given.

1) Infinity Looper: 18 volts DC - 1.0 Amps 
2) Helicon Chorus Pedal: 9 volts DC - 100 ma                       
3) Pigtronix Inifinity Looper: 18 volts - 300 ma 
4) Helicon Mic Looper: 12 volts - 400 ma
5) T1 Tonematch: 18 volts  - 1.0 Amps

1) Infinity Looper: P = 18V x 1.0A = 18W

2) Helicon Chorus Pedal: P = 9V x 100mA (0.1A) = 900mW (0.9W)

3) Pigtronix Inifinity Looper: P = 18V x 300mA (0.3A) = 5.4W

4) Helicon Mic Looper: P = 12V x 400mA (0.4A) = 4.8W

5) T1 Tonematch: P = 18V x 1.0A = 18W

For these 5 pieces of Equipment I see a Power Requirement of 47.1W

Tom, you mentioned above that you'd also like to use the VoiceLive 3 Extreme but this hasn't appeared in the list. I've looked it up and they say the power consumption is <14W

VoiceLive 3 Extreme taken from the TC-Helicon Website.

Power

External Power Supply Mains Voltage: 100 to 240 VAC, 50 to 60 Hz (auto-select)
Power Consumption: < 14 W

 

This would make a total power consumption of 61.1W

I can't actually see the inefficiencies being as high as you calculate ST, as the inefficiencies here are going to be basically on the transformer side and that isn't usually too big a deal. If I were looking at inefficiencies between 15% and 20% on the transformer side of things I would be considering that to be pretty high. Maybe someone who reads this can say from experience where this inefficiency may lie. If it were 25% I'd still only be at roughly 75W.

In my opinion, depending on how well the generator delivers when its rechargeable battery is near to exhaustion, you could eventually be looking at 4 hours of usage from one charge. Looking at the specs of the generator 3 hours should be a doddle. To be on the safe side I would power up everything I wanted to use and see how long it takes until it can't deliver any more. I would do this at the type of temperature which I would normally expect to be working at. The colder the ambient temperature the more unwilling rechargeable batteries are at giving out power.

Of course all of this is how I see it and of course ... no guarantees that my calculations are correct. 

I hope that this has been of some help.

And now I'm almost in as much suspense as you Tom.

Tony

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Jan 22, 2014

Re: S1 Pro Busking Power Questions

Tony,

This is magnificent and I'm ever grateful for your help and input.  And thank you for noticing my error in the list not including the VoiceLive 3 Extreme unit.  Don't know how I missed that!  

    This is assuring to me that the portable generator rated 500 watts/288 WH (watt hours ) will likely get me through most all gigs.  Rarely would I go any more than four hours and most are three or under.  

   But the bottom line for me will be in fully charging both the generator and the New S1Pro and then just performing a practice show till it drains.  And thank you for the "temperature conditions" advice as well.  When I am outdoors if it is extremely hot, that could weigh in another factor for me, though I won't be playing in any real cold weather, cool perhaps, but this ole boy just ain't that brave to be the "Busking Penguin" anywhere!  

   I will definitely be back here to report all my findings and how they both perform and last in power.   

   I appreciate you so very much....as well as ST helping the gazillions of us, and all the other members here that give advice and suggestions.  Love this place and love my Bose.     Thanks much guys!   Tom 

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Dec 13, 2013

Re: S1 Pro Busking Power Questions

Hi Tom,

I'm hoping that I haven't made any elementary mistakes in my thinking and calculating. I can't see any but you never know.

I'm looking forward to reading about your "test-driving" of the system under battery power.

One Question Tom. The Infinity Looper (18V, 1A) I can't seem to find anywhere and I'm not familiar with it. At 18W that's a lot of power too. What does it do? Thanks for any information you can give me here to still my curiosity.

Tony

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Re: S1 Pro Busking Power Questions

Hi Tony,

Thanks for joining the conversation.  Here's the basis of my thinking for the T1®

MattS-at-Bose posted:
? - ? - ? - ? - ? - ? - ? - ? - ?

The T1 power supply rating of 81-100 VA is the same as 81-100 watts (volts times amps is watts). So I consider T1 maximum power draw 100 watts.

? - ? - ? - ? - ? - ? - ? - ? - ?

Thanks and good luck!
MattS-at-Bose
Source: Compact plus T1® on battery power

Assuming similar consumption for the Infinity Looper, this is why I guestimated at over 200 Watts.  

Cheers,

ST

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Jan 22, 2014

Re: S1 Pro Busking Power Questions

Wow Guys!  What an additional education I'm getting just from being a musician!   I did my calculations from the output numbers and not the input numbers which did not seem like it was high enough.   

    Since your replies, to double check I went to the Pigtronix website and got the specs directly from there.  I think I made a mistake with it as the site shows it as:
Voltage: 18V DC
Current Draw: 200mA @ 18V

    Current Draw....since that is what I'm really after I think, is MUCH less and I wouldn't have double checked had it not been for Tony, so thanks much friend.   I can't check my adapter again until I'm home from my office.
   Since I am now convinced that my using the power generator will not damage my equipment in any way, that this is now just a matter of how efficient and long lasting the power source will be, I am more at ease.  My main concern is equipment damage.  (expensive stuff!)  

   As a side note:  I also read that the way to check your adapter power supply's efficiency is to check it's temperature when plugged in.  If it gets really warm, it isn't comfortably efficient.  The ratings are usually in Roman Numerals (I, II, III, IV,) etc.  Class V is currently the best efficiency rating. 

     The bottom line is that I have received confirmation that my S1 Pro, the Battery, and the Power Generator will all arrive here tomorrow.   Once I have both the Bose and the power generator fully charged, I will come report the findings, results, and of course review it all.  After some practice wearing the new shoes and getting comfortable, I will be doing a small gig immediately and will report all the findings.   Thank you both so much for all your help....and I'm curious to see the further replies.   You guys are awesome!  infinity looper

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Re: S1 Pro Busking Power Questions

Hi ST,

First let me say that I based my Calculations on the values given by Tom.

As MattS-at-Bose pointed out Volts times Amps is Watts which is what I also said P = U x I  (Watts = Volts times Amps). Fo far so good.

As Bose doesn't part with knowledge regarding circuitry etc. I can't say anything regarding the actual power consumption of the units. I can only be theoretical here. 

Now let's look at the T1 Power Supply specs (your pic).

Input: AC (alternating current)  100 - 240V AC  

                                                    50 - 60Hz  81-100VA 

This is the transformer rating (specs).

Transformer power rating is always given in VA (VoltAmperes) which you can directly translate into Watts (W = V times Amps)

Output: DC (direct current) - and this is where it becomes interesting -                                                                                  

                                                     +18V, 1A DC

                                                     -18V, 1A DC

which would actually mean that the power supply is capable of supplying 

plus18V   ( through 0V )     to      negative (minus) 18V. If you take both the plus and the negative 18V you have 36V at 1A which would mean 36W. This is double the 18W that I calculated.

Now to look at the input and the output of the unit I would say that the designer has given him/herself enough headroom for the unit to be able to supply the T1 without breaking sweat which is the way it should be in my opinion.

If the power supply were to really use the 81-100W we'd be looking at a power dissipation of 45-64W which would be in the form of heat. That's actually a lot. The Power supply would become (in my opinion) pretty hot. The transformer would also be running at its limit ... and also not very efficiently ... not good.

When connected to a Powerstand, that would also be having to supply this power via the Tonematch connection. That's pretty high isn't it?

I think that MattS-at-Bose's suggestion in the 

Compact plus T1® on battery power

thread to use a "a kill-a-watt or similar" type of unit and actually measure what the equipment is actually using is a really good piece of advice to anyone who doesn't want any nasty surprises. Thinking is one thing, but testing, measuring and therefore actually knowing in something else altogether. Here's a link to that thread.

https://www.bosepro.community/...ery-power#1240040776

The T1 is just one piece of equipment being considered. It could well be that this unit needs +18V and -18V. This would mean up to 36W and not 18W. 

I'll leave it at that for now. This post ist long enough as it is, although I must say that such things interest me.

I can also understand your "guestimation" ST. If I'm unsure about something I'll always try to make sure I have enough reserve (power or, if necessary, redundancy with regard to equipment).

Sorry if this is now confusing you Tom, but as you've already written

Musicianthomas posted:

   But the bottom line for me will be in fully charging both the generator and the New S1Pro and then just performing a practice show till it drains. 

you'll not be walking into anything with your eyes shut. I'm also more interested than ever to know the outcome of your test-drive.

Try not to let us wait too long ... LO(very)L

Tony