cancel
Showing results for 
Search instead for 
Did you mean: 
cancel
Showing results for 
Search instead for 
Did you mean: 
docscott
Participant
  • 0
  • 13
  • 0
Registered since

Mar 3, 2007

Small corner setup

Hi all - this is my first post:

I've been running an L1 with one bass module for our duo for the past two months and we've experienced mixed results depending on the room setup.

We're running through a Mackie mixer with two mic's, an I-pod backtrack, and two guitar inputs. We change instruments frequently (acoustic, electric, banjo, bass), so running through a Mackie mixer with a line out to the L1 seemed like the easiest to manage.

We've been able to achieve outstanding results when we are on a stage (compared to ground level) with the L1 between us and back 6-7 ft and we are separated by at least 5 ft. This puts us off axis and we don't get feedback. The sound is crisp, we can hear ourselves perfectly and the sound fills the room - we've gotten many compliments from long term listeners who say this is the best we've ever sounded.

We are having trouble when we play in small venues in limited space and on floor level. The worst is in a bar & grill where we have very limited space in a corner - we can only get the L1 back about 3-4 ft, and we are not separated by more than a few feet. We are on floor level with tables immediately in front of us. We struggle with feedback due to the proximity, so we can't get enough gain (plus the volume in our ears becomes too loud). In the back of the room, customers can't make out what we are saying or singing and the general sound is muffled - I assume because the bottom half of the tower is being blocked by us and the first row of tables. Our critical listening group says our old Peavey system sounded much better in this settiing (we were using an SP5G on a stand pointed at the middle of the room with a Peavey floor monitor pointed at us).

Has anyone tried elevating the tower by 3 ft or so to get it to shoot over? I've read other posts about tilting the mic's up and off axis, so we'll try that. Any other suggestions would be appreciated. We are committed to making the L1 work in all of our multiple venue settings, but it's an experiment in progress and gets frustrating at times - I can't stand it when we can't get our sound right!

Changing stage area is not an option since every square foot of this place is taken up with seating and the owner is not willing to bend on giving us a larger area.

Thanks! Scott
16 REPLIES 16
DrumrPete
Advocate
  • 43
  • 4619
  • 0
Registered since

May 16, 2017

Re: Small corner setup

Hi Bell,

Sorry to hear you are having some trouble, but not to worry, there is always a workaround.

You certainly can raise the L1s up off the floor, just be sure the riser is solid and the unit won't topple.

BabyBlueEyes built his own risers for them and it worked great. These were very solid and covered with a non-slip type of Naugahyde or something.

The only thing I would probably not do is put the B1s inside the box as bass sound resonates from the B1 in every direction and putting it inside the box might reduce your bass level, or possibly resonate at undesirable frequencies.

However, the bass sound at his show was fine.

My band has played some really - tight spots and have yet to have any trouble.
I had thought that our bodies might kill the sound projection but it didn't.
As a matter of fact, some of the best sound we've had is in those cramped quarters.
ric_2
Member
  • 0
  • 594
  • 0
Registered since

Jan 16, 2006

Re: Small corner setup

What mics are you using? They can make a big difference in feedback. I recently converted from shure 58's to a Sennheiser e 945 and found that the feedback recjection was much better. Also they have little if any proximity effect.

Audix OM5's are also a popular choice for feedback rejection using the L1.

With the Sennheiser I can be 3 feet in front of it at a loud volume and it won't feedback.

Also, running two vocal mics through one L1 makes it a little more difficult to get the best feedback rejection. Read the manuals for your mic, they recommend that if you are running two vocal mics through one sound system that the mics are spaced double or tripple the width apart as from each other as they are from the system.

So, if you are 3 feet from the system the next mic should be 3 feet in front of the system and 6 to 9 feet away from the first mic.

O yea and as usual make sure you are kissing the mic to get the most out of your gain.
StuartD
Contributor
  • 2
  • 478
  • 0
Registered since

Nov 23, 2005

Re: Small corner setup

Hi:

We have seen the same thing with our duo, with respect to having the L1 sound its best when positioned five feet, or more, behind us, etc.
We are an acoustic duo: two guitars, one vocal, with an occasional additional vocal.

However, only one of our venues affords us the luxury of adequate space to position the L1 behind us. For the others we are sitting on top of the L1 for all intents and purposes. And for these latter situations we have discovered the following:
1. The sound we hear is not 'exactly' the same as the sound the audience hears, so after we have got the balance and volume for the audience to hear, etc., we must trust that what the audience is hearing is better-sounding that what we are hearing. And we go with it.
2. If we try to increase the volume, when performing with the L1 in such close proximity to our microphones and instruments, we encounter feedback issues when the main volume knob reaches the 12:00 position on the remote. Though in all fairness, that's loud enough for us. Too loud in fact.
3. Up to this point we have been able to fill any venue we play, with adequate, superior-quality sound, regardless of if we have the L1 five feet behind us...or if we are sitting right next to it. However, when the people start filling up some of these places we cannot hope to get over the combined audience noise. So we came to the conclusion that, if the folks want to hear the music they'll hang out up front, where it can be heard very clearly. If they want to talk amongst themselves, they'll hang out at the back, etc.

You might have to take the same approach. Which, all things considered, is still better than using the traditional PA (you said yours would reach the back of the room) because at least with the L1 you don't deafen the people sitting in the front.

Of all the venues we currently perform, the venue we played this past Friday and Saturday has the smallest area for us to set up, and in fairness is not very good at all; extremely tight. Yet, of all the places we perform with restricted stage set-up areas, this venue provides us with the ability to sound our best. We love playing there, even though it's very tight. And we never tire of hearing the endless compliments about our sound quality (and how folks don't go home deaf at the end of the night, etc).

Good luck,

Stu
kingscourt
Member
  • 0
  • 771
  • 0
Registered since

Oct 27, 2006

Re: Small corner setup

Here's a tight spot that sounded out of this world, but the only thing is to make sure your mic is off axis with the L1. I was having some feedback problems until I figured this out.
Dan_Cornett
Contributor
  • 3
  • 2672
  • 0
Registered since

Jun 6, 2005

Re: Small corner setup

quote:
Originally posted by docscott:
...We're running through a Mackie mixer with two mic's, an I-pod backtrack, and two guitar inputs. We change instruments frequently (acoustic, electric, banjo, bass), so running through a Mackie mixer with a line out to the L1 seemed like the easiest to manage.

We've been able to achieve outstanding results ... with the L1 between us and back 6-7 ft and we are separated by at least 5 ft ... We are having trouble when we play in small venues ... The worst is ... where we have very limited space in a corner - we can only get the L1 back about 3-4 ft, and we are not separated by more than a few feet. We are on floor level... We struggle with feedback due to the proximity, so we can't get enough gain (plus the volume in our ears becomes too loud). In the back of the room, customers can't make out what we are saying or singing and the general sound is muffled - I assume because the bottom half of the tower is being blocked by us and the first row of tables. ... Has anyone tried elevating the tower by 3 ft or so to get it to shoot over? I've read other posts about tilting the mic's up and off axis, so we'll try that. ...

(1) Elevating the L1 will help the sound get to the back -- but don't expect it to help much with the feedback or the sound getting too loud in your ears.

(2) In addition to the other suggestions made by folks above for improving mic volume before feedback:

Are you only taking one line from the Mackie to the PS/1? If so, I think you could make some significant improvements in managing your sound by at least separating the mics from the other instruments.

In fact, when I look at your list of "connections", I'd be prone to running the two mics direct into channels 1 & 2 of the PS/1, finding the best preset to use for those mics (particularly if they are different models of mics), and controlling them with the Level controls on the Bose Remote.

Then, take the output of the Mackie ... which now only has the backing track and the guitars, all into a mono output ... into channel 3 (or also 4, if your backing tracks are stereo and not summed to mono in the mixer).

There are other variations possible with keeping the mics into the mixer, but helping to get the details right would require more details on the model of mixer. Separating the mics completely is probably simplest and would give the most immediate benefit (in addition to trying to have the mics at right-angles to the L1 column, and up [away] from the B1 modules).

(3) With regard to "L1 in the ears": When you can't easily increase the distance between your ears and the L1, the other alternative is to change the "angle" ... that is, move yourselves and the column so that you are more beside it rather than in front of it. Think about the column being another performer, and move it up beside you rather than behind. The tonal quality will change somewhat for your ears (as compared to what the audience hears), so don't change the EQ to compensate, but that tonal change (primarily reduction of some higher frequencies) is likely to also help reduce feedback problems as well as lower overall volume to your ears.
docscott
Participant
  • 0
  • 13
  • 0
Registered since

Mar 3, 2007

Re: Small corner setup

Thanks everyone for all the good suggestions. We are using SM 58 beta's for our mic's and we haven't tried splitting them off the mixer and directly into channel's one and two yet. That sounds like it would give us more control and we'll try that for sure.

We play back in 'the corner' this Saturday, and we'll also try elevating the system to shoot to the back of the room more effectively.

Tonight we're playing in a bar with a large stage and plenty of space for the ideal setup.....I love the sound of the Bose system in this place. Gotta run.... I'll let you know the results of the changes we make after Saturday's gig.

Scott
docscott
Participant
  • 0
  • 13
  • 0
Registered since

Mar 3, 2007

Re: Small corner setup

Last night we played in the tight corner setup again and we had much better luck with our sound. I bought a small 2x4 ft. folding table at Sam's for $35 that we used to elevate the stick. It has a sturdy steel frame and plastic top (lightweight and solid). It was the perfect size to accommodate the Stick and leaves a little space on either side for harmonicas, capo's and other miscellaneous stuff you never have a place for.

The improvedment in sound was dramatic in the back of the room with the vocals carrying much better. We also put the bass box on the table next to the stick and the low end boominess we experienced in the corner last time was eliminated. This is definitely a nice solution when you're trapped in a recessed space with too much in front of you. We also had better feedback control using the mic's into channel's one and two. We also tried separating our guitars out of the left channel of the mixer to the line 3 input, and the backtracks out of the right channel to input 4. This way we utilize all four channel's on the Bose and we have a bit more control of our line level outputs. Dedicating the mic's to 1 & 2 give me remote control of our gain to minimize feedback while optimizing volume.

Since we are running only one bass module at this time, I found it lacking when running my Fender Deluxe Jazz bass through the system. I tried the preset on Channel 1, but my separate Fender Bass Amp (BXR-400) produces a much better bass tone. I think part of the problem is when we're running two guitars, two vocals and a drum backtrack all through the system, the bass tends to get lost in the mix. I'm sure if I dedicated a stick with two bass boxes for bass guitar it would work out great.....but that's not going to happen anytime soon. Since I use the top of the bass amp as my 'table' for my i-pod mixer that controls our backtrack's, I don't mind wheeling it in along with the L1 system.

I attached a photo here showing the setup. Given the limited space, the sound worked out great.

Thanks again for the suggestions and I'm now confident we can make the system work in any setup they throw at us.

Scott
docscott
Participant
  • 0
  • 13
  • 0
Registered since

Mar 3, 2007

Re: Small corner setup

Another photo of our crammed corner setup with the stick elevated.

Scott
ST - Pro
Professional Legend
  • 1430
  • 48121
  • 3
Registered since

May 11, 2020

Re: Small corner setup

Hi Scott,

I'm very glad that you found a solution that works for you - but please be careful. You've got about 100 pounds on that table and I just shudder when I see that locking mechanism at the corners.

You might get better low end response from you B1 if you put it on the floor. You may have some cancellation issues with the B1 elevated.