snakehips
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Sep 27, 2008

Suitability of a T1 Tonematch

Hi there,

As you may know, I am a Bose L1mk2 plus 2xB1’s and two T1 Tonematch mixer owner, for the last 9yrs or so.

And happily so !

I have a question related to getting a Tonematch mixer for my local church. I’m the only one they know that knows about musical equipment, hence asking me !

They have a complicated set-up for mics for inside the church - but the mixer section they have, I believe is pretty poor and I know they should be able to do better, with a T1 Tonematch. I’m trying to keep the cost down for them, either giving them my T1 (as I’ve just bought the new T8S 8-channel Tonematch), or getting them a used one (so I can keep mine !!).

I’ll give you some background below, so you have some more detail BUT the question relates to their choice of 4-channel mixer, and should a T1 Tonematch give all the features that they are getting with their current mixer, as I know the Tonematch will give so much more in terms of EQ etc otherwise.

So basically though, my question is this : Can theTonematch T1 do all the absolutely necessary things their “system” needs as a bare minimum ?

Basically, can I swap the T1  WITH the mixer they use (a Shure SCM268) mixer (4 mic channels, with just volume controls, no EQ what so ever !), that currently only outputs the whole audio mix (to the power amps and speakers) via a single XLR Master output socket AND a Aux mono phono output socket (presumably gives the same mix as the Master Output mix) that is used to send audio to the church’s Loop Induction system, for hearing aid wearers ???????

Detail : large traditional stone-built Catholic church, with internal walls, all bare stone.

Altar at front has a set of wall-mounted Bose speakers (not sure what model, but looks old enough- at least 10yrs old, maybe 20) either side of the Altar, another set of (name not known speakers) wall-mounted speakers, a third of the way down the church, and a new set of modern wall-mounted speakers, two-thirds down the church.

I have to say, the Bose speakers by far sound the best amd warmest out of the three pairs of speakers - and are probably the oldest set !!

Inside the Sacristry, there is a rack-mount set of gear :

1. Bose power amp or just pre-amp (not sure which, but I presume came with, and specifically matched to the Bose speakers). The model is “Bose 402C Systems Controller”

2. Two 2-channel power amps - one has both channels connected to speakers (Yamaha P1600 power amp), one I think is just for the newest set of speakers, only using one channel (W-Audio EPX500).

3. Induction Loop system for hearing aid wearings in the church - it just has a single phono socket input

4. Shure 4-channel mic mixer - Shure SCM268

https://www.shure.com/americas...nel-microphone-mixer

5. Dual-Time corrector - a digital delay device to delay the audio signal to the newest and furthest back speakers, so that audio from those back speakers comes out at about the same time as the audio from the speakers nearer e frot of the chirch, so less muddy sound - this may or may not contribute to potential feedback issues !

6. One Lapel-mic, one Lecturn mic (currently, they are using my AKG 1000 condensor mic), and two Sennheiser hand-held radio-mics

7. Two receiver units that came with the radio-mics. The Priest’s lapel-mic is also a wireless radio-mic and connects to the same Sennheiser receivers, so I assume they were all sold together, and all same brand. The receivers are currently high up on the side wall of the alter, where the signal was found to be best in all locations for the mics. The radio-mic receivers have a single Balanced/Unbalanced output TRS jack socket each BUT are currently wired up with MONO jack leads, with the cables going through a hole drilled in the floor, directly into the Sacristry below, plastered around the cable for no gaps - NOT ideal. I have suggested the hole needs reopened and proper balanced TRS cables used !

So, I wonder WHY the previous sound engineer (probably not actually a real one !) has gone for this fairly expensive Shure mixer, that offers zero flexibility for individual EQ. The Priest’s lapel-mic is very trebly and prone to feedback, especially with sibilants (words with a strong S in it). It is also quite susceptible to noice from the Priest’s vestments/clothing. This mic especially could benefit from advanced EQ capabilities that the T1 Tonematch could offer.

Is there some feature in the Shure SCM268 mic mixer needed eg. for the radio-mics and/or Induction Loop system, that the T1 mixer can not match ???

Can I use the T1’s Aux output to send a full audio mix signal to the Induction Loop system (using a jack-to-phono-plug adapter), perhaps ???

Many thanks for your help. Lots of detail here but the real question is will the T1 mixer do whatever the Shure mixer is doing ? The Shure mixer has an “individual transformer” for each channel - this seems to be it’s main feauture. I’m not sure if this is something special to the average mixer, AND a T1 Tonematch, or if the T1 will cope 100% with the requirements.

Many thanks again !

PS. I have a Feedback-Buster rack mount device that might be useful for when the Priest walks about with his lapel-mic and/or hand-held mics ???

6 REPLIES 6
Esparka
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Sep 25, 2005

Re: Suitability of a T1 Tonematch

Could you repeat that?

snakehips
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Re: Suitability of a T1 Tonematch

Esparka - would you like to come round to my place and ask that again - and I'll show you how much I appreciate your cheek ?

snakehips
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Sep 27, 2008

Re: Suitability of a T1 Tonematch

I was a relatively simply question BUT the Bose people usually like us to give some background to the question, hence giving the background to my question !

 

ST - Pro
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May 11, 2020

Re: Suitability of a T1 Tonematch

Hi SnakeHips,

The short and perhaps unsatisfying answer is...

Try it.

Thanks for taking the time to provide all this detail.

snakehips posted:

Hi there,

As you may know, I am a Bose L1mk2 plus 2xB1’s and two T1 Tonematch mixer owner, for the last 9yrs or so.

And happily so !

I have a question related to getting a Tonematch mixer for my local church. I’m the only one they know that knows about musical equipment, hence asking me !

They have a complicated set-up for mics for inside the church - but the mixer section they have, I believe is pretty poor and I know they should be able to do better, with a T1 Tonematch. I’m trying to keep the cost down for them, either giving them my T1 (as I’ve just bought the new T8S 8-channel Tonematch), or getting them a used one (so I can keep mine !!).

I hope you can keep your T1®. From some of our other conversations, it sounds like you can still put it to good use.



I’ll give you some background below, so you have some more detail BUT the question relates to their choice of 4-channel mixer, and should a T1 Tonematch give all the features that they are getting with their current mixer, as I know the Tonematch will give so much more in terms of EQ etc otherwise.

So basically though, my question is this : Can theTonematch T1 do all the absolutely necessary things their “system” needs as a bare minimum ?

Maybe.

Sometimes you can't anticipate everything (although you've done a masterful job).



Basically, can I swap the T1  WITH the mixer they use (a Shure SCM268) mixer (4 mic channels, with just volume controls, no EQ what so ever !), that currently only outputs the whole audio mix (to the power amps and speakers) via a single XLR Master output socket AND a Aux mono phono output socket (presumably gives the same mix as the Master Output mix) that is used to send audio to the church’s Loop Induction system, for hearing aid wearers ???????

I would give it a shot. Use ToneMatch Presets where there's a good match, and zEQ if necessary. No effects except Comp/Limiter. But I'd start with that  bypassed initially. Experiment with it later.



Detail : large traditional stone-built Catholic church, with internal walls, all bare stone.

Altar at front has a set of wall-mounted Bose speakers (not sure what model, but looks old enough- at least 10yrs old, maybe 20) either side of the Altar, another set of (name not known speakers) wall-mounted speakers, a third of the way down the church, and a new set of modern wall-mounted speakers, two-thirds down the church.

I have to say, the Bose speakers by far sound the best amd warmest out of the three pairs of speakers - and are probably the oldest set !!

Inside the Sacristry, there is a rack-mount set of gear :

1. Bose power amp or just pre-amp (not sure which, but I presume came with, and specifically matched to the Bose speakers). The model is “Bose 402C Systems Controller”

That provides custom EQ for the Bose speakers.



2. Two 2-channel power amps - one has both channels connected to speakers (Yamaha P1600 power amp), one I think is just for the newest set of speakers, only using one channel (W-Audio EPX500).

3. Induction Loop system for hearing aid wearings in the church - it just has a single phono socket input

I'd connect the T1® Aux output to the Induction Loop system.



4. Shure 4-channel mic mixer - Shure SCM268

https://www.shure.com/americas...nel-microphone-mixer

5. Dual-Time corrector - a digital delay device to delay the audio signal to the newest and furthest back speakers, so that audio from those back speakers comes out at about the same time as the audio from the speakers nearer e frot of the chirch, so less muddy sound - this may or may not contribute to potential feedback issues !

I'd leave this in place when you swap in the T1®. Of all the things you might change, I'd leave this to the last.



6. One Lapel-mic, one Lecturn mic (currently, they are using my AKG 1000 condensor mic), and two Sennheiser hand-held radio-mics

7. Two receiver units that came with the radio-mics. The Priest’s lapel-mic is also a wireless radio-mic and connects to the same Sennheiser receivers, so I assume they were all sold together, and all same brand. The receivers are currently high up on the side wall of the alter, where the signal was found to be best in all locations for the mics. The radio-mic receivers have a single Balanced/Unbalanced output TRS jack socket each BUT are currently wired up with MONO jack leads, with the cables going through a hole drilled in the floor, directly into the Sacristry below, plastered around the cable for no gaps - NOT ideal. I have suggested the hole needs reopened and proper balanced TRS cables used !

Ideally, yes - you want balanced connections from the receivers to the mixer.  Are you hearing any hum, hiss, buzz from the microphones? If not, then you may not need to change the wiring. 



So, I wonder WHY the previous sound engineer (probably not actually a real one !) has gone for this fairly expensive Shure mixer, that offers zero flexibility for individual EQ.

Possible reasons:

Sturdy build, still working 10-20 years later, nothing for an inexperienced end-user to mess up.

The Priest’s lapel-mic is very trebly and prone to feedback, especially with sibilants (words with a strong S in it). It is also quite susceptible to noice from the Priest’s vestments/clothing. This mic especially could benefit from advanced EQ capabilities that the T1 Tonematch could offer.

Agreed.



Is there some feature in the Shure SCM268 mic mixer needed eg. for the radio-mics and/or Induction Loop system, that the T1 mixer can not match ???

Not that I can see from reading the web page. Thanks for the link.





Can I use the T1’s Aux output to send a full audio mix signal to the Induction Loop system (using a jack-to-phono-plug adapter), perhaps ???

Yes.



Many thanks for your help. Lots of detail here but the real question is will the T1 mixer do whatever the Shure mixer is doing ? The Shure mixer has an “individual transformer” for each channel - this seems to be it’s main feauture. I’m not sure if this is something special to the average mixer, AND a T1 Tonematch, or if the T1 will cope 100% with the requirements.

I don't think you will miss the "individual transformers"



Many thanks again !

PS. I have a Feedback-Buster rack mount device that might be useful for when the Priest walks about with his lapel-mic and/or hand-held mics ???

Swap in the T1®, do what you can with Preset, zEQ, and even ParaEQ. If you can't get what you want you can add the Feedback-Buster.

When you get everything set up the way you like on the T1®, save your settings as a T1® Scene. Then save the T1® Scene  to a computer. That way, you can restore the settings if someone else comes along and changes them.

T1® Scenes

Please let us know what you decide to do.

Thanks,

ST

snakehips
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Sep 27, 2008

Re: Suitability of a T1 Tonematch

Hi again !

Many thanks for your help !

 

snakehips
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Sep 27, 2008

Re: Suitability of a T1 Tonematch

Lastly, would “Hand-held mics” still be the best choice for the radio-mics and lapel mic as the most likely setting to chose, on the T1 Tonematch ?

Thanks again !