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T8S with two L1 Model II for full band

Hello again, 

After having the chance to use both my 812/F1 set up (w/ Soundcraft mixer) and then use my L1 Model II set up w/ T1, I just truly prefer the Model II ease of set up and sound quality.   Because of that I have sold my 812/F1 set up and am moving forward with purchasing a L1 Model II w/ B2 bass module.  (My current Model II has dual B1's)  I'm also going to purchase a T8S as it has enough inputs to use for my whole band. 

That being said, any advice on how I should route the instruments once I get my new gear?   

The band set up is (2) vocal mics, (2) mic'd small guitar tube amps, (1) bass guitar (XLR coming direct out of bass amp), kick drum mic OR electric drum kit (he switches it up based on venue), acoustic guitar via 1/4", and keyboards coming via 1/4" (I think I can run these into 9/10 on the T8S, but volume control would need to be handled from the keyboard vs. the T8S).     Style of music is mainly country and some classic/southern rock. 

Being that the T8S has L/R outs, do I run everything to both L1's or pan some things to one L1, and some things to the other?

I JUST missed the 15% Bose sale, so I will likely wait until it happens again, I'm in no rush, but want to be prepared accordingly.  

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May 11, 2020

Re: T8S with two L1 Model II for full band

Hi Koop1975,

Here are the principles to start.  Fine-tune when you get the second L1 with B2.

  • Place the L1 systems behind the band spaced at one-third intervals across the back of the stage
  • Each sound source should be heard through only one L1 (the closest one).
    • That is: pan each channel hard left or hard right
    • Do not pan anything up the middle
      • Because of the wide coverage you get with the L1s, you don't need to pan anything up the middle
      • You lose more than you gain by panning up the middle
        • You lose gain-before-feedback panning microphones up the middle
  • Run each vocalist through one L1, the closest one
  • Run each mic'd guitar amp through one L1, the closest one
  • Run the drums to the L1 with the B2
  • Run the Bass guitar to the L1 with two B1s


That should get you going.

Does that help?
ST

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Re: T8S with two L1 Model II for full band

That is extremely helpful, thank you ST! 

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Jul 3, 2018

Re: T8S with two L1 Model II for full band

Can you get the Cocktail Party Effect using only one L1M2 w/B2 by panning the respective sources?

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May 11, 2020

Re: T8S with two L1 Model II for full band

Hi Cowboy Upp,

That's a great question.

Cowboy Upp posted:

Can you get the Cocktail Party Effect using only one L1M2 w/B2 by panning the respective sources?

Basically, no.

If you have all the sound coming through one loudspeaker, there's no sense of localization or separation.  You need at least two loudspeakers playing different sources to have the eye-ear correlation that supports the Cocktail Party Effect.

Note: Having two loudspeakers on either side of the stage playing the same material does not support the Cocktail Party Effect, it completely obscures it.

ST

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Re: T8S with two L1 Model II for full band

We are also using 2 L1's for a full band, but thus far with everything panned up the middle. We have two singer/guitarists fronting the band standing next to each other.  Wouldn't panning hard left and hard right make it seem like the singers were too far apart? Why not pan 9 O'clock to the left and 3 O'clock right? We often play wineries and outdoor events where people are not directly in front of of us, and off to the side.  Wouldn't that destroy the cocktail effect for those listeners or make the mix sound funny? Why do you lose gain before feedback when panning up the middle? Finally, we are pushing all channels to one aux channel in order to record. How will panning effect that?

Thanks!

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Re: T8S with two L1 Model II for full band

Hi Larry,

Thanks for chiming in.

Larry posted:

We are also using 2 L1's for a full band, but thus far with everything panned up the middle. We have two singer/guitarists fronting the band standing next to each other.  Wouldn't panning hard left and hard right make it seem like the singers were too far apart?

If you have the L1 systems behind the band spaced out equally, it shouldn't make the singers seem too far apart.

Why not pan 9 O'clock to the left and 3 O'clock right?

When you have the same sound coming from to loudspeakers (any brand),

  • And the coverage overlaps and includes the microphones; you lower the gain-before-feedback
  • When you have the same sound coming from two L1 systems, Bose recommends you have at least 20 feet between them. This is to avoid Multiple Source Interference, which is often heard as hollow-sounding vocals or tonal shifts. This is because the L1 systems have extremely wide horizontal coverage and there's a strong likelihood of overlapping sound fields.

We often play wineries and outdoor events where people are not directly in front of of us, and off to the side.  Wouldn't that destroy the cocktail effect for those listeners or make the mix sound funny?

The Cocktail Party Effect may be lower when perceived from the side; this won't make the mix sound funny.

When you have a single sound source heard through multiple loudspeakers, you increase the reverberant level for that sound source and lower its intelligibility and clarity.

Why do you lose gain before feedback when panning up the middle?

When you send a microphone through one loudspeaker, you have one potential source for feedback.

When you send a microphone through two loudspeakers, you have two potential sources for feedback (double the potential for feedback). You lower the gain-before-feedback.

Panning up the middle sends the sound of the microphone to two loudspeakers, increasing the potential for feedback. That's a reduction in gain-before-feedback.

Similarly, every time you double the number of microphones heard through a loudspeaker; you lower the gain-before feedback.

When you have multiple microphones heard through more than one loudspeaker, you compound the effects above.

Finally, we are pushing all channels to one aux channel in order to record. How will panning effect that?

Panning does not affect routing to the aux channels on the ToneMatch mixers. Other mixers may use a pan control to direct sound to different aux busses; The ToneMatch mixers don't do that.



Thanks!

If you have the L1 systems behind the band and they are not more than 20 feet apart, try panning each sound source (particularly microphones and guitars) hard to one side. You want the sound coming out of the L1 closest to the source.  There's no harm in trying it out. Let your ears decide.

ST

References:

Microphone Feedback

Microphone Techniques for Live Sound Reinforcement

The L1® Approach and the History of Amplification 

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Re: T8S with two L1 Model II for full band

Great stuff - loving all of the information, ST!   Thanks again!