Volume too low with Shure SM58

[Yendor]

Marty Cansler posted:

Yendor posted:

Kjellarn posted:

Hi!

I unpacked a Bose S1 Pro today (alongside my L1S/B2/T1) planning to use it at a small gig on wednesday. But I am disappointed with the volume on the microphone (Shure SM58). I have tried different inputs and settings. The guitar sound great and with lots of headroom, but I have to crank the volume almost to maximum to get (to my ears) a reasonable volume from the Shure.

(I have ordered  a Sennheiser e945, thinking it was a better mic than the SM58 (which is OK) but I'm getting second thoughts about that. I won't have it before wednesday anyway.)

So, can anyone help with my volume problem? Am I missing something?

Regards

Kjell

I have the same issue. I have tried my AKG and Audio-Technica mics with the same result. I ordered the below-matching transformer, that basically converts from mic level to line level. I does help greatly. I currently run my S1 with this, or also run a Yamaha MG06X mixer, with a 12-volt rechargeable battery pack. A little extra setup, but works and sounds great. Gives the S1 added preamp on both mic and instrument and allows increased hookups.

https://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-AUD-CP8201

When using the Yamaha MG06X, are you running the mic (right) out to the S1 Pro channel and using the mic tone match.? 

Mics into Yamaha, mono out to S1. Tone match off. The MG06 has effects. Especially like the delay feature in the MG06. Power the mixer by the battery pack. Works great. I am looking for a headset mic with greater sensitivity then the Audio-Technica I'm currently using. Also the XLR to 1/4" matching transformer almost solves the issue. Any recommendations would be appreciated on a headset mic. Too bad Bose doesn't fix this issue with a firmware update, if possible. LOTS of people are having this issue.

[Jeff_K]

A few comments here:

• the Sennheiser e945 has a slightly higher sensitivity rating than the SM58, so will have a slightly hotter output for the same input (how much so? Depends on how much difference an 8% increase in mV level works out to. Let us know <g>.
• I'd wager that the Tonematch mic setting used the SM58 because it's the world's most popular live vocal mic and other dynamic mics in the same (also most popular) price range are similar enough that it doesn't much matter.
• In most cases, running a mixer in stereo doesn't buy you much as only the people directly between both speakers actually get a stereo signal (assuming you've panned things left and right). That said, I use one with my pair of L1 Compacts as a mixer still gives plenty of flexibility, and most small mixers don't have a mono output anyway. Typically you would just keep everything panned center and you'll have what's known to us sound guys as a "dual mono" setting: same thing to both speakers. If you have instrument amps on either side of the stage, panning can actually help to get more of the instrument signal to the side away from the stage amp if that's an issue. Or if you have subgroups, like my Soundcraft has, you can pan vocals to one and instruments to the other, set their output to mono and get better overall mixing control.
• I would not recommend using those impedance matching transformers either as they do put a lot of stress on 1/4" jacks that really weren't designed for that much lateral weight. They also have very small transformers with very small iron cores and tend to overload easily, which affects the sound quality.
• Mic setting vs Guitar setting: you have to remember that the volume levels on the S1 are more like input trim settings on a mixer, i.e. they only need to be turned up slightly for hot inputs like keyboards, guitar pedal boards and acoustic electric guitars; they may need to be turned up quite possibly all the way for mic inputs, especially dynamics. 

How large of a crowd are you trying to cover with the S1, more than the spec'd 50 person estimate? Remember, these little guys don't even have the power of an L1 Compact in comparison, which is the smallest of the L1 series. The determining factor of crowd coverage for the Bose (or any) PA's generally boils down to how well it can amplify your voice, as electronic instruments generally aren't the limiting factor due to their hotter output. As was suggested above, a small mic preamp, small mixer or similar would be a good option (some are even battery powered, look at broadcast field mixers like the Shure SCM series). Another option would be a wireless mic, as their receivers have level controls and they put out a line level signal (usually with both XLR and TRS connections available).

Hope this helps,
Jeff

[Busker Pete]

Hi Kjellarn - I unboxed an S1 about 4 weeks ago and ran into the same problem with my SM58.

I purchased an Ammoon AGM02 2 channel mixer (AU$79) which is powered by a 5v USB mobile phone power bank and run both my mic and guitar through the mixer leaving one of the S1 channels free. Try different tone match settings on the S1 to suit your own sound and venue. The small power bank (14400mAh) will run the mixer for about 20 hrs! I don’t use the EQ or PAN on the Ammoon, so they just sit on null(0), I use a Zoom MS50G to EQ my guitar.

i use the S1 solely for busking and I can’t tell you enough how fantastic I find it - great sound, portable, long battery life etc. And loud! But it now realise that the S1 is primarily a PA, and the use of a mixer is almost mandatory.

Cheers, Peter (Sydney Australia)

[Kjellarn]

Thank you all for the suggestions. I'm sorry I didn't check for other threads regarding this subject, but I became a little stressed and got carried away.

To get something to increase the mic's signal is obviously the way to go. But I was expecting, when I bought it, to get away with just the S1 (and a mic/support). Having more gadgets and batteries was not what I was looking for. I do have an extensive collection of other electronic gadgets, including the L1S/B2/T1, and was looking forward to leave them all at home for smaller gigs. Less to carry, and running on battery. Oh, well - that's life in a big city..... I will, however, do the gig on wednesday with just the S1 and see what happens and take it from there. I'll come back and tell you about it.

Thanks again, I really appreciate your comments and suggestions.

Peace and sunshine,

Kjell

[Marty C]

ST is correct.  I just went with a Sennheiser 935 and it is about 25% louder than my SM58.  

[Oldghm]

Since I started using the L1 systems I have been more interested in the polar pattern than sensitivity because in the end I can twist the knob to get the gain I need, but anytime I need a lot of volume I need to avoid feedback.

I have noticed that different mics require different settings on the S1 and because of the design, I guess, I have paid more attention to it. However, all the mics I have tried were sufficient to get the volume necessary for performance.

For a while now I have been using the EV ND 96 and have grown quite fond of it. It is supercardioid and with the presence switch engaged it cuts like a knife, crisp and clear. 

When I read through this thread my curiosity was peaked and I went looking for some info. These are just numbers to me but they do represent a difference that shows up when you crank the volume knob on the S1.

Sensitivity in mV/Pascal

EV ND 96                  3.3 mV              Supercardioid

EV ND 86                  2.4 mV              Supercardioid

Sennheiser e945        2.0 mV              Supercardioid

Sennheiser e935        2.8 mV              Cardioid

Shure SM58               1.85 mV             Cardioid

Audix OM5                2 mV                 Hypercardioid

If sensitivity and feedback rejection are key elements in mic selection, it's easy to see why the ND 96 has become my favorite with the S1 Pro.

O..

PS: I do not use a mixer with the S1

[Oldghm]

Marty Cansler posted:

Now using a Sennheiser 935, but looking to adjust volume and eq at my feet - and something I can power with a battery.    

Odd, however that the tonematch was created for an SM58?  

Hi Marty,

I am not certain, but I don't think The S1 mic ToneMatch preset is for a SM58. In the T1 there is a specific SM 58 preset, but there is also a general use vocal mic preset. I think they used that general vocal mic preset in both the Compact and the S1.

I hope ST will correct me if I'm wrong.

Many vocal mics have similar frequency response curves. Those I have paid attention to seem to differ a little, below 150 Hz or so and about 2K Hz and above. These are areas where proximity effect takes place on the bottom and vocal presence takes place on the top. Bose is all about vocal clarity so these frequency ranges are voiced to suit close mic technique with their systems in a good way, but still have eq adjustment range for artistic expression. I wouldn't worry about matching the S1 preset with a particular mic.

O.. 

[Yendor]

Oldghm posted:

Since I started using the L1 systems I have been more interested in the polar pattern than sensitivity because in the end I can twist the knob to get the gain I need, but anytime I need a lot of volume I need to avoid feedback.

I have noticed that different mics require different settings on the S1 and because of the design, I guess, I have paid more attention to it. However, all the mics I have tried were sufficient to get the volume necessary for performance.

For a while now I have been using the EV ND 96 and have grown quite fond of it. It is supercardioid and with the presence switch engaged it cuts like a knife, crisp and clear. 

When I read through this thread my curiosity was peaked and I went looking for some info. These are just numbers to me but they do represent a difference that shows up when you crank the volume knob on the S1.

Sensitivity in mV/Pascal

EV ND 96                  3.3 mV              Supercardioid

EV ND 86                  2.4 mV              Supercardioid

Sennheiser e945        2.0 mV              Supercardioid

Sennheiser e935        2.8 mV              Cardioid

Shure SM58               1.85 mV             Cardioid

Audix OM5                2 mV                 Hypercardioid

If sensitivity and feedback rejection are key elements in mic selection, it's easy to see why the ND 96 has become my favorite with the S1 Pro.

O..

PS: I do not use a mixer with the S1

Oldghm. Brilliant. Thanks for your efforts!

[ST - Pro]

Hi Oldghm

Oldghm posted:

Marty Cansler posted:

Now using a Sennheiser 935, but looking to adjust volume and eq at my feet - and something I can power with a battery.    

Odd, however that the tonematch was created for an SM58?  

Hi Marty,

I am not certain, but I don't think The S1 mic ToneMatch preset is for a SM58. In the T1 there is a specific SM 58 preset, but there is also a general use vocal mic preset. I think they used that general vocal mic preset in both the Compact and the S1.

I hope ST will correct me if I'm wrong.

Many vocal mics have similar frequency response curves. Those I have paid attention to seem to differ a little, below 150 Hz or so and about 2K Hz and above. These are areas where proximity effect takes place on the bottom and vocal presence takes place on the top. Bose is all about vocal clarity so these frequency ranges are voiced to suit close mic technique with their systems in a good way, but still have eq adjustment range for artistic expression. I wouldn't worry about matching the S1 preset with a particular mic.

O.. 

S1 Pro Microphone ToneMatch Preset

Category: Vocal Mics

Preset: Handheld Mics

L1 Compact equivalent: Channel 1

The Microphone Preset includes a sharp low-cut filter, keeping only that part of the audio spectrum where the microphone is useful. Using the microphone with this preset minimizes bass regeneration. The microphone preset was developed for close microphone use (“eat the mic”), which is the best way to optimize your vocal signal for tone and gain before feedback^[5].

About the presets: No mic that I know of sounds good for close vocal, even for recording for that matter. All our presets compensate for this. A lot of these mics sound a lot more natural when you back off a foot or so from them. Of course, this is true in the studio too. No one does this for a live performance (backs very far off the mic) since you want to maximize gain before feedback by eating the mic.

Source: S1 Pro Microphone

ST

[ST - Pro]

Hi Oldghm and everyone reading along.

Please understand, I'm not taking issue with anything you've said Oldghm.

Oldghm posted:

Since I started using the L1 systems I have been more interested in the polar pattern than sensitivity because in the end I can twist the knob to get the gain I need, but anytime I need a lot of volume I need to avoid feedback.

I have noticed that different mics require different settings on the S1 and because of the design, I guess, I have paid more attention to it. However, all the mics I have tried were sufficient to get the volume necessary for performance.

? - ? - ? - ? - ? - ? - ? - ? - ? 

I did some hunting around and your EV ND96 earns consistently strong reviews.  

Here's something from Shure.com

Top 8 Microphone Myths Exposed

3. A louder microphone is better.

False.  Some microphones are more sensitive than others, but microphone sensitivity is not inherently related to quality. In musical applications, when a mic is placed very close to the sound source, the sensitivity of a microphone is not important. There's more than enough signal even from a less-sensitive microphone to provide a PA system with an adequate signal.

If the microphone is overly sensitive, it just means you have to dial in more attenuation on the mixer channel so you don't overload the mixer. If you've got a mic on a snare drum that's 10 dB more sensitive than another mic on the snare, you'll have to turn down the one that's more sensitive.

Extra sensitivity is not related to the sound quality.  In the days when neodymium magnet microphones were introduced, it was a common demonstration technique to line up several microphones, connect them to a mixer and set each channel level the same. Each microphone was tested, and when it came to the neodymium magnet microphone, it was noticeably louder than the alnico magnet types.

Psycho-acoustically, listeners tend to equate louder with better, and that's been a common sales technique used in selling stereo speakers. If one pair in a store demo is turned up a little louder than the others, customers tend to think they sound better. Or are better. It's the same with microphones. It's a loudness difference, not a quality difference.

Source: Top 8 Microphone Myths Exposed

Check out the whole article.

ST