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Jan 16, 2009

Re: system sounds as if it is compressed

I agree with O..

I recently did sound for a church play (during Christmas Eve). I only had 2 L1MII systems with an Allen & Heath mixer. I used a T1 to provide Reverb and Delay effects for the entire board. There were 13 Microphones and 5 instruments hooked up to the board. And they sounded wonderfully. Of course, I did not leave all of them on all the time. Depending on the act, I turn them on/off accordingly. There were time that performers walked right in front of the L1 systems with microphones and no feedback was experienced. The level of the whole system was adequate for the whole church.

I don't think a traditional PA system can provide the same result.
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Nov 22, 2010

Re: system sounds as if it is compressed

Hi guys,
Just finished the christmas "tour" and gonna give you all my final verdict.
The Bose is a fantastic product, stylish, durable, and reliable but lacking in the volume department (mine is anyway, waiting to try another system).
I know a few of you have told me that it doesnt replace a conventional Pa while on the other hand Bose themselves have said otherwise.
I would at this point tend to go with the former of these two, system protection is my problem, I have tweaked, adjusted and tried about every thing to get the sound i need but no good.
Small venues 20-30 people are great but anything more and the system struggles.
I find that after everything is gain staged there is a certain point where the system does go into protection mode, dont get me wrong, I am happy this protection feature is in the Bose but would love to have a little more headroom before it does so.
I have not used the tc helicon harmonizer for any of my gigs over christmas to see if the mic problem could be sorted, but unfortunately it is no good.
I find it very hard to explain in writing here what the problem is I am facing but will give it a go.
With the master vol at 50% I adjust my trim for each individual channel and then use the channel volume to mix the sound.
I get the mix to a low/moderate level and start the show and adjust channel volume levels to performance volume,which usually leaves the channel volumes at roughly the 50% setting.
I now have the master at 50% and the channels at roughly 50% (nothing going into red, just green/amber).
Any attempt to go beyond this volume either by turning up master or channel volumes results in the dreaded mic "squeezing" sound,(protection is coming on because sometimes the tracks loose a bit of volume and come back up again after a few
seconds).
I am having sleepless nights wondering what I am doing wrong and why the mic seems to be the only problem (maybe the tracks are compressing too but not as noticeable)
On new years eve I was out performing with my two piece band (using Martin rig) and after we decided to do the disco with the bose so that we could dismantle the 2 piece gear and pack it into van.
The room held 200+ peolpe and the Bose handled this no prob (to a certain point where the system wouldnt get any louder no matter how you turned it up)but once a mic was added to announce a few requests thats when the compression started (had to mute the disco to do requests or else the mic just was not heard).
It is a strange situation and I am at a lose tring to work out what could be wrong.
Are the tracks too punchy? I really dont know.

Davy.
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Jun 6, 2005

Re: system sounds as if it is compressed

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade:
...The room held 200+ peolpe and the Bose handled this no prob (to a certain point where the system wouldnt get any louder no matter how you turned it up)...
At this point, you are getting all that one system will produce -- at least with 2 B1's. I suspect, especially disco music, that you are hoping for more bass. One solution is to add an "extended bass package (a Packlite amp and two more B1s) or an external powered bass speaker (both of which are run from the Bass Line Out on the L1). Either way, that would allow you to "get more bass" (which most equate with "louder") without pushing the L1 column to its limit.

Just a thought: are you sure both B1's are working? Can you clearly hear sound coming from each B1? Maybe one of them is not working, and that might explain A LOT of your volume issues.

Once you are pushing the L1 System (in this case, L1 Model II and 2 B1's) with just the "tracks" (music), then this:
quote:
...but once a mic was added to announce a few requests thats when the compression started (had to mute the disco to do requests or else the mic just was not heard).
... is entirely understandable -- and would actually be true of any speaker/amp configuration with built-in protection. You just can't push them past the design-in limits.

As an aside: many conventional PA's allow this by either distorting the "over-max" sound or letting you operate in the "risky zone" where much of the time you can be loading the equipment "too hard" - but with the risk of blowing some circuit or component or speaker somewhere.

quote:
...Are the tracks too punchy?...
This is what made me wonder if:
(a) both B1's are working.
... and / or ...
(b) you just need more than 250w of bass volume to meet your expectations.
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Nov 22, 2010

Re: system sounds as if it is compressed

Hi Dan,thank you for your reply,
The bass is certainly not the problem, this machine is fantastic at producing bass end. The prob I am having is that it goes into protection at too low a level for my backing tracks for the one man show I do.
It is amazing at a certain level, vocals are crisp and clear , but once I try to turn up the vocals get compressed.
The Bose is definetly a different system than what I am used to, and maybe my ears are not accustomed to that yet.I do understand as well that the volume doesnt need to be as loud now to carry throughout the venue, wheras the old pa I had was loud on stage to fill the room and maybe that is what I am basing my opinions on.
Below is a few vids I recorded last weekend in a reasonably big bar I perform at.
I recorded it with a FLIP video recorder placed on a shelf about 20 feet away, this is the system not compressing (any louder and the problems start)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhnFpgVtHmg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R52GItidEXg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVQW9GLo7R0

Just to give you all an idea.
It actually sounds loud on the videos but isnt on the stage .

Davy.
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Sep 12, 2010

Re: system sounds as if it is compressed

Sounds good to me, both the performance and the system. From the perspective of where you have the camera/mic, you're way above the crowd noise and everything sounds nice and clear. That said, I understand that not being there and not hearing it from your perspective, it's not fair to comment. How about next time trying the mic/camera even farther away? See if from that perspective it's still cutting it and clear. It might at least give you some piece of mind that out front your being heard clearly.
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May 25, 2004

Re: system sounds as if it is compressed

Hi Davy,
Thanks for the videos. The flip camera apparently has auto record level which messes a bit with the dynamics of your performance but it can't hide the quality voice and guitar playing.

The mix seems very good to my ear. The guitar disappears from time to time, but your vocal stays out front and on top, I liked it.

It is hard to tell in the video but it appears there is an opportunity to get a bit closer to the mic. The last inch in front of the mic could be worth 10dB or more. I think working lips touching the mic was the hardest adjustment for me to make but it is worth it if you can make the change.

When the music gets soft, the camera changes it's record level and begins to pick up the audience, but when you are performing at a moderate level the audience noise seems pretty much in the background.

Based on my experience I'm betting you can still hear the audience, and possibly quite a bit more than you did when using conventional equipment. That is another part of getting used to the L1. Because the sound field is more uniform throughout the room it might seem as if the audience is louder, or you need to raise your level to get across, but if you work with it long enough you will get used to hearing the audience and maybe even learn to appreciate the fact that they can pretty much talk at reasonable levels and listen to you at the same time.

O..
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Apr 12, 2004

Re: system sounds as if it is compressed

quote:
I do understand as well that the volume doesnt need to be as loud now to carry throughout the venue, wheras the old pa I had was loud on stage to fill the room and maybe that is what I am basing my opinions on.


Davy, I think you are on the right track here, there is definitely a huge adjustment from performing with conventional gear. As a 4 piece rock cover band, we were used to having to blast the mains to get the sound to the back of the room.

One advantage we had is that we always had a loose body that could walk to the back when we were soundchecking, so we quickly got used to performing at lower levels.

We soon found that both the patrons and club owners in general liked the sound of the new gear; customers didn't have to yell to get their drink orders, or to converse. And overall, the fine details of the music were actually better appreciated.

Great videos, your sound is clear and crisp, very impressive for a simple open mic camcorder.

Best Wishes,
Jeff
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Dec 26, 2018

Re: system sounds as if it is compressed

Just wanted to revive an old thread that has helped me tremendously. I, too, was having system compression trouble like the OP. After reading DrumrPete’s reply, I have turned up the master on my T4S to 2 o’clock, controlling the overall volume for each channel on their respective channel gains. I have run this system (L1S) much louder than previously, with ZERO compression trouble. Still fighting a little feedback from my lead singer’s mic, but I’m searching thru threads to help me with that. So glad I found this thread. 

Thanks. 

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May 18, 2017

Re: system sounds as if it is compressed

I always get the dreaded compression...  so I went out and bought a used Classic to set up on other side of my staging (or sometimes 8 feet or so apart facing slightly outward, with 2xB1 and a B2 massed together between them ... problem solved.   The CLASSIC RULES !