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Dec 14, 2017

Please help with this awful lag ?

 

Hi,

 

As an owner of multiple Bose products over the years I have to say I never thought I would have to go to the bother of registering on BOSE.com forums to let off steam at a bad, BAD product but here I go!

 

This product should have a label "WARNING - For use only to playback MP3/WAVs etc"

 

Instead, on this very site the brochure/webspage of the MultiRoom SoundTouch has pictures of TVs with the SoundTouch 300 SoundBar in there and the following text and I QUOTE:

 

"SoundTouch is meant to grow with you. Once you have one speaker, you can add more at any time. They all work together, so as you go from room to room, your music goes with you. We even have solutions for home cinema and outdoors, too."

 

WHY is there a TV in the brochure on the MultiRoom page? There should be no TV in there. Its completely misleading in the Soundtouch Multiroom section (10/20/30). I bought these speakers on the basis I could use the AUX IN for my TV and also as a speaker system for my Roland Stage Piano. It doesn't work at all!!!

 

Heres what I found:

 

After plugging in (yes, WIRED) the Soundtocuh 10 to my Stage Piano (via AUX IN) it was impossible to play piano due to a lag of about 0.5s. ie I play a chord and the sound only happens when I've moved to the next chord. How odd; I thought the speaker was broken so I moved on to the Soundtouch 20. There the lag was worse 4s+ via the AUX port! For crying out loud... thats wired directly and the speaker is not trying to communicate with any other speaker (YET). What is this thing doing to the audio signal ????

 

To me it sounds like its building up a buffer [needlessly] for wired connections. I 'sense' this is the problem because when you stream MP3 over wifi as an alternate test to the AUX test, if you kick the speaker off the WIFI it continues to play for a few seconds.

 

So I ran some additional tests with both speakers Grouped and the lag got even worse if thats even possible?? Now at 6s. WOW!!!! And curiously if you enable the 'Video' setting on the group where the Soundtouch 10 is the 1st device, then the soundtouch 10 sounds 5.5s before the soundtouch 20. (Thats the best Stereo spread I ever did hear)

 

I've seen your techie on here explain that the lag was due to processing and syncing the sound from one speaker to the other over wifi. Thats is not correct. It may be part of the issue but from where Im sat the speakers themselves, individually, seem at fault. In my first tests, neither speaker was connected to WIFI and no Group was set up... only AUX IN was used. Clearly the hardware or software combination in both of these is not acceptable for this and is faster in the Soundtouch 10 than the Soundtouch20.

 

Tell me there is an alternative to sending these back via Amazon ???

 

Putting me right off Bose now I can tell you. I feel misled / cheated.

 

Seems like a moot point/question but why is the Soundtouch 10 less laggy than Soundtouch 20? 0.5s vs 4s+? Clearly there is some hardware or software difference.

 

PS: Ive also tried a split Y cable as one customer and one Bose Techie suggested when responding to similar complaints on BestBuy... but the lag figures I quote above apply and it gives me a butchered stereo pair with a lag of 0.5s for the SoundTouch10 and 4s for the sountouch 20.

 

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Re: Please help with this awful lag ?

Hello wailim1972,

 

Sorry for any confusion, wired rebroadcast does provide multi room audio within the SoundTouch application via streaming services or if you have a Bose SoundTouch home theater product (SoundTouch 300/Lifestyle 600/650) for streaming multi room TV broadcasts to other SoundTouch systems(SoundTouch 10/20.30). The aux input is great for playing music from external sources, but wasn't engineered to be used for connection to instruments for live performance.  We do however make products specifically for instruments, one of which is the L1 compact.

 

Let us know if you have any other questions.

 

Best Regards,

Joel

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Re: Please help with this awful lag ?

Thanks but I think you dodged the question/problem here... forget my music instrument and the word 'live'.

 
Basically the aux in does not function like an aux in on any other speaker.
 
If i wire my TV headphone jack to the SoundTouch 20 the picture and sound are off by 4s+
 
Same if i use bluetooth. 
 
If I play videos on my notebook and wire or BT it to the speaker... same awful lag.
 
I fully expected both of those use cases to work.
 
You mention the soundbar to *maybe* solve the TV issue, but my point is I was oblivious that i need to purchase a €699 sound bar to make the sound touch 10 & 20 work with a TV.  And Im sceptical because i understand how the TV/soundbar combo might delay the picture to match the hdmi sound sync points i do not see how the soundbar can account for a 0.5s delay on soundtouch 10 and a 4s delay on sound touch 20... have you personally tried this?
 
A warning such as 'Not for direct use with TV, requires a Soundtouch 300 Sound Bar' would not go astray.
 
You mention streaming again. I didnt want to pay such a high premium for an MP3-only streaming speaker or fancy dock for an iPod. I paid the premium for Bose and for a more versatile product than the SONOS. Instead I got the lesser performing brand according to sound quality reviews and still basically an expensive wireless iPod & online streaming speaker system.
 
I think Bose doesnt get-it. A speaker with an aux in needs to BEHAVE like a speaker with an aux in ... else its not fit for purpose and will frustrate people. This may be why SONOS dont offer either aux in or BT because they foresaw a marketing blunder.
 
Thanks anyway. Im sending both speakers back and going to wait for a system with aux in that behaves as one would expect
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Re: Please help with this awful lag ?

I will piggyback on this complaint.

 

I have a TV300 and  6 other ST devices in the house.  One of them is nearby the  300(Livingroom) in the kitchen.  But this is mostly a big open area.  I would like to have the TV playing at both speakers so I can hear it in either/both rooms.  

 

But there is either a few seconds lag in the sound between the two units or a few seconds lag between the video and the correctly synchronized sound.

 

Sometimes the video/sound lag is ok, but sometimes, especially with sports it can be very annoying.

 

Even if there is a limitation of the hardware that would prevent an exact syncrhonization of sound across units to the video, it would be much better to cut the lag down.....A LOT.

 

Just a suggestion.

Thanks

 

 

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Re: Please help with this awful lag ?

Hello Bissettb,

 

Thank you for your suggestions. A full article on wired rebroadcast can be found HERE(please disregard the statement of "beta").

 

Video Sync setting for the main speaker

  • Video Sync will appear as an option for the system that is broadcasting the audio from its connected auxiliary device. To gain access to the setting, customers will select “Group Settings” in the Speaker Details screen of the main speaker
    • When set to “On” – The main speaker will produce audio 3 seconds sooner than any speakers added to it’s group or in Play All
      • This is most beneficial when the main speaker is an audio for video product, such as a SoundTouch 300. Therefore, it will keep the SoundTouch 300 in sync with the video on the connected television
      • All other speakers in the group or Play All will have a 3-second delay from the main speaker
    • When set to “Off” – The main speaker will produce audio in sync with any speaker(s) added to its group or in Play All
      • If the main speaker is connected to a video display, the audio will not be in sync with any video content being displayed

Hope this helps.

 

Best,

Joel

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Re: Please help with this awful lag ?

So Joel, Even you must realise that you are giving out confusing mixed statements here:

 

In a post above to me, you say, and I Quote:

 

"or if you have a Bose SoundTouch home theater product (SoundTouch 300/Lifestyle 600/650) for streaming multi room TV broadcasts to other SoundTouch systems(SoundTouch 10/20.30). "

 

I understand this to mean you are standing over Bose's ability to deliver Audio to all SoundTouch Speakers in the group from the TV, in sync with the picture. I might have gone out and purchase a SoundTouch 300 to test your statement above.

 

Yet just now, you seem to acknowledge that only the main speaker might be in sync with the TV and the others will be 3s behind! Or else all of them will be 3s behind depending on that 'Video' switch .

 

To me, Wireless Multi Room Speaker system means I can join Multiple speakers together in one room or many rooms and it should not matter where they are so long as they share WIFI. Yet there is clearly a restriction here on Multiroom capability when TV or DVD etc are introduced. ie... oooopsss Sorry if you have your SoundTouch 20s in the same room as your TV and SoundTouch 300 Soundbar.... 'you got us there' ; yeap they are 3s behind the main picture, In fact, even if you move them into the kitchen you can probably still hear them so may as well switch them off!!!  What is Bose thinking here? 

 

I do not see the point of an end consumer speaker being 3s delayed from the TV picture. This is not a sports bar type business scenario where a SountdTouch 10 might be in the restroom with no visible TV to know the sound is not in sync with the TV pictures.

 

We are home end consumers you are talking to.

 

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Re: Please help with this awful lag ?

Network traffic (whether on the Internet, on a local network, wired, or wireless) is sent in data packets and those data packets aren't necessarily received in order. For any device receiving an audio data packet over a network, in order for it to be syncronized with other devices, there needs to be an audio buffer in the device and communication between all the audio devices to sync the audio signal between them all. Since the bose doesn't process video (which is a good thing for gaming purposes), it can't delay the video signal to time it with the audio. Because of this, the option is to either have the system connected to the TV in sync with the video and out of sync elsewhere OR have all rooms in sync with the system connected to the TV out of sync with the video.

 

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Re: Please help with this awful lag ?

 

Hi James,

 

Thanks for your response and opinion/explanation. I understand all too well the issues you bring up. However if I expose the basic simplest algorithm below in software development algorithm terms, I cannot see how a 6 second delay would result. Nor can I understand why Bose would go with UDP or Multicast rather than TCP/IP connections. With the "App" as uber master, it can tell (configure) the speakers what to do, and the sky should be the proverbial limit here.

I've spent 22 years developing software and some of that was on custom client server solutions with dedicated signalling connections and out-of-band connections etc so I know a little in this area.

You seem to be suggesting UDP is in use rather than TCP streaming sockets... or perhaps Multicast? I cannot see any reason that would be the case for a home network. I mean if the data stream was duplicated 6 times ptp rather than broadcast it might pollute the local network but by my calculations my network can easily handle dozens of file large file transfer simultaneouly without any degradation of a casual web surfer user experience. Those file transfers would be far more intensive than even a sample stream. Nor can I see why Bose would want to spend time reinventing packet ordering and buffering when this has pretty much been nailed over the last 2 or 3 decades.

If Bose simply nailed a 5.1 setup using SoundTouch (10s/20s & 30s + a woofer) then the goal and the sky has been reached. Somehow Bose missed that goal with these speakers. To solve that, you are only talking about one master speaker among 7, configured by a mobile application. At most, the master speaker (front center) would need to maintain data streaming client-server tcp sockets to the front stereo pair, the rear center, rear stereo pair and finally the sub woofer .. ie 4 connections or 6 connections depending on whether the stero pairs are re-forwarded or managed centrally from the front center.

Lets look at a simple TCP client/server streaming socket type solution and put some real numbers on this shall we?

Supposed I just have a software sampler algorithm inside the Bose SoundTouch 20 that samples music from the AUX IN as follows:

(CD quality sampling 16bit @44.1Khz in Stereo)

Firstly, if this speaker is not connected to the WIFI and is not in a Stereo Pair, and is not in a Group then I see no reason for any delay in pushing the sample stream directly back to the speaker in realtime via the reverse AD convertor. There should be no delay here and your explanation does not address this. Any chance you could elaborate whats going wrong in this case? Why is a buffer required here for example? Can you not publish a patch to disable the buffer when in single speaker aux in mode? Perhaps code resuse in the extreme means the speaker section has to be driven by UDP rather than directly ?? Pity if thats the case.

Secondly, you seem to be indicating UDP or Multicast transport. For Bose to go there and reinvent the ordered & guaranteed packet delivery of a TCP/IP streaming client/server socket, something very odd is happening!
 
Now, if the sampler simply pushes the data into two Queues, LEFT & RIGHT, it will produce 176,400 Bytes every second. This is 1400Kbps or 1.4Mbps. Half of that is for Left and half is for Right channel, right? So if this speaker is set up in a Stereo Pair, then one queue is consumed internally in the speaker and the other queue is directed to a TCP/IP connection out onto the network to the other speaker.

To give a 'spatial' feeling to the resulting stereo I could add a configurable delay. In its simplest form I could simply delay sending the data out the socket. In more complex form I could encode the time each sample was sent and let the receiving speaker delay playing the sounds. But the type of delay here should probably be < 50ms.

For reference on my home WIFI (AC/N) I can typically expect transfer rates of 56Mbps. So if I move a file of 1.4GBytes from a network drive to a laptop C:\ drive it will take about 2 minutes.

Now, suppose I have a Network Connection (TCP/IP socket using TCP not UDP) inside a Bose SoundTouch 20 Designated the Left of a stereo pair. If I now read off the RIGHT queue where the sampler has placed the music sampled in the Right Stero field, and push the data through the socket as fast as I can then the Queue will drain to zero because I am faster than the sampler (I am not clocked to 44.1KHz I can use all 3GHz of the CPU core). This is fine, I just wait for about 0.00002 seconds for the next sample, and push it out right away (Real time).

Now, in another SoundTouch 20, I have setup as in the group or else Stereo pair (RIGHT), I am at the other end of the TCP/IP socket. If I simply rely on the network layer of my software language to order packets (as it does) then I can expect to receive the incomming streaming  tcp/ip socket data pretty much in realtime. The delay should be in line with the measured network latency... in my network its latency is 3 ms to the router and 3ms to the other device giving a total latency of 6ms.

This is obviously an oversimplification and there would be issues to address. Not everyones network is as consistent as mine; some are better, some are worse etc.. However if in addressing those issues that will occur in bad networks, a MASSIVE 6s delay is introduced for everyone, then some software developers have made some poor tradeoffs in my opinion.

As I suggested in a not so technical way in my first post.... while the buffer & delay may be necessary to assist with a stable internet stream, the buffering should be turned off for the Bluetooth or AUX IN. 

I suspect even the simple algorithm above, warts and all, would behave much more 'as expected' to the average human than what is there right now.
 
Thats my 2c. Where am I going wrong with the simple algorithm and why is a 6s delay better? I'd rather random glitches than permanent failure.

 

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Re: Please help with this awful lag ?

Hi wailim, 

 

You are much more knowledgeable about network traffic than I am. Excuse my oversimplification. You're right about the unnecesary delays of the speakers aux in on its own and when playing elsewhere. I dont think Bose ever advertised the Soundtouch 20 or 30 for use with TV like they do for 300 soundbar. I wonder if video sync timing was excluded in favor of processing for wifi rebroadcast. I know for the video systems there is an option in the app to either have the audio for the main room system synced with the video or synced with sound playing on other systems. The second option introduces a 3 second delay. I don't think that delay is that long because they couldn't make it any shorter. If it was a half-second delay from video-synced audio, it would be much more abnoxious to hear in other rooms - an echo effect would be much more pronounced. It's 3 second to prevent echo. Does the 30 have an this video sync option in the app? Either way sounds like the 30 isnt the speaker for you if your need to use it with video or a musical instrument. 

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Re: Please help with this awful lag ?

The Bluetooth Video TV  sound lag with the SoundTouch 10 is unacceptable.  Makes these speakers useless to connect to TV or to a PC.  Lag makes watching and listening like a bad foreign movie.  Mouths move and seconds later sound comes out.  Music bands play and music is at least 2 seconds behind.  How could this even be a product you put out on the market with the Bose Brand Name on it which used to stand for undeniable Top Shelf Quality Products.  This product, soundtouch 10, 1 pair of speakers, when sold was defective to start with and never should have been advertised or sold in stores touting its ability to wirelessly connect to anything relating to video.  Seriously, BOSE you are destroying a high end Brand Name like Bose for what reason??  Will definitely be considering other products now that you don't care about quality anymore.  My whole house is full of Bose Equipment and I completely enjoy the superiror sound, but when it can't be used with any video sources, it is pretty lame and not a contender for future purchases.  Sad to see Bose go down this way, but, it clearly is of their own doing.  Fix it or lose it, and it seems that you are losing customers by the Thousands.  Mix that in with your failure to Suppport the WIndows 10 platform for Bose Connect app, and you realy have devastated your own Brand.  If you can't do something, then please dont advertize that your product can.  That is Fraudulent Business Practices in New York and maybe the Attorney General needs to step up and see why this is happening without any repair or solution and why Boase has mislead thousands of its customers.  Just a very Bad Situation.  I agree with some of the other posts.  Maybe a big warning on the outside of the package that states, "These wireless speakers cannot be used with video, as it will be completely useless and annoy the living daylights out of you if you try."